| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. Please read the Guidelines before posting a question. This is an archive of posts from May 15 - 21, 2001 on the Guru's Den |
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Welcome Frank Turley! Frank is the newest member of our color guard. He the founder and operator of Turley Forge Blacksmithing School and a frequent demonstrator at craft schools, regional workshops, and universities. Frank's color is "Silver" |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 05/14/01 22:09:17 GMT |
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Correction: I spoke to Thomas in inside sales at Price. Not Frank. In way too much of a hurry this afternoon.... To go see a lawyer no less. Yuck! But I stopped at the scrap purveyor after the lawyer and all is now better in the world. I now have a virtually unlimited supply of 1" and 1/2" diameter music wire drawing stock. I should be able to smith some stuff out of that, huh? And yes, I was too lazy to add the step of inches per second to inches per minute. Jock is right that most forging presses will be at least 15 hp. It was an example. Plug in your numbers to make it real. Or ask. I love this stuff. One more thing on the hydraulics.... valving is very important. For a press, you want a three position, 4 way OPEN center valve. That way, when you are not extending and retracting, the flow from the pump does not have to go across the relief valve. Or better yet, get a pressure compensated, variable volume pump that only puts out as much flow as required to maintain the pressure. More dollars though. |
| Tony <tca_b at mmmmilwpc.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 00:13:53 GMT |
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At the Spring Fling I finally had enough money scraped together to purchase a Green-Mengel 66 lb. swage block. This block measures 10" X 10" X 3 ¾ " and has a fair number of round and square swages along the edge, and some shallow bowls, spoon depressions, a "betty lamp" depression and a shovel cavity on the faces. Working, as I usually do, at the low end of the iron-age I have a number of questions about this newfangled piece of high-tech equipment. Do I assume that the swages in the edges will substitute for a large number of bottom swages, and work well in combination with a top swage? (I know that this is an obvious question, but better to ask before knocking the corner off the swage block!) The square swages seem to be a little more obtuse than 90 degrees. Is this a problem of the casting, or is it done on purpose to provide relief while working slightly larger stock down? If this is not so, should I file them out to 90 degrees? Should I file and smooth all of the business parts of the casting? Would a small angle grinder be useful, or is that too aggressive? I was contemplating a hardwood stand, which would secure the swage block atop my main anvil when needed. This would provide a secure mount with plenty of weight below it and a good working height, but keep the block off the anvil's face. This still would require a different mounting for the swage block's faces. Any neat ideas on a swage block mount? I've already found a number of operations that the swage block is useful for (and handier than some of my jerry-built solutions) but do any of you have any cool swage block tricks that you especially advocate? Look out 19th Century! Here I come! Cool and pleasant on the banks of the lower Potomac. I think I brought all of that Denver springtime weather back with me! I am also honored to rub electronic elbows with such as Frank Turley, an excellent author, craftsman and artist. His Southwestern Colonial Ironwork gets a workout at the Departmental library, especially from me. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 02:00:05 GMT |
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I've been interested in forging my own knife blades for a while, so I recently got the materials together and made a forge. My first attempt at a knife (or anything else) wasn't all that succesful. The edge side of bar I was using thinned out fine with hammering but it forced the bar to bow, of course, since the opposite side was now shorter than the edge, creating something that looked more like a sickle than a knife. Is there a reference somewhere on the net with help for knife forging? Can you give me a few tips that might get me started? Thanks. |
| Jeremy <jsoule at ameritech.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 02:22:30 GMT |
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I'd like to echo Bruce's welcome to Frank Turley. It's both a pleasure and an honor to work beside Frank. The book that Bruce mentioned, I'm fortunate enough to have found a copy. It's already showing signs have been read more than once. Not too long after Anvilfire came on line, I did a review of Frank's book. I haven't revised my opinion, it's still an interesting read. |
| Paw Paw Wilson <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 02:28:49 GMT |
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Chris Turley (not related) wrote in a while back about the identification of leg vises. I, for one, wish that someone had enough information to write "Leg Vises in America" in order to echo Postman's "Anvils in America". I have gathered a little material over the years and would like to share it. In the Southwest, I venture to say that Columbian vises outnumber other brands by about l5 to 1. More often than not they have *tiny* "tabs", the lugs which extend from the jaw bases, and many have stubby open boxes. The box is the screw portion and, by 'open', I mean that the area extending beyond the back of the fixed jaw has a hole in it (like an elongated nut). A very few Columbians had a solid box, closed on the end. Columbians quite often had rectangular-section legs. Some had a short length of the legs chamfered into an octagonal section, but not too many. I have one dated 1917 on the movable jaw; it has rectangular legs. The mounting plates are a rough triangluar shape with the sides incurved, and the "points" radiused. It is close to a lozenge shape, except one end is thickened where it contains a key and wedge, which gives it kind of a triangular look. I have a WW II vintage Columbian which has a "C" on the plate and a "U" shaped return spring. A good looking vise which has a broader, longer tab is the Iron City brand. I can only guess that they were made in either Pittsburgh or Gary. If you're facing the screw head, the side of the movable jaw to your right will contain a Star of David impression, and within the star will be stamped in caps, IRON CITY. I have owned two Iron City vises, and I liked them both. They have the octagonal section on the legs, and the mounting plate is bifurcated and splayed. Another vise which I find aesthetically pleasing is one that is very carefully finished. I have two of them, and the workmanship in incredible. I don't know the maker, but I have been told they are Peter Wright vises. This vise also has a mounting plate much like the Columbian, but I don't think they copied the Columbian, more like vice versa. The box is solid, and the closed protruding portion of the box looks like an old fashioned mortar with lathe turnings and a small ball on the end. One of mine has stamped in small letters on top of the box, PATENT SOLID BOX. There is a lathe turned line on the screw head. The legs have their octagonal section. One of the vises has a "W" stamped on the box which can be seen if the box is removed. The tabs are broad, thick, and elongated compared with the Columbian. I have two quite old vises, and I mentioned their distinguishing feature in a previous post. The mounting plate has a tenon which extends through the fixed leg and through the top of the spring. The tenon has a rectangular hole through it, so it may be wedged in place. The Plate is hot split, the resulting legs splayed in a curve away from each other. Each leg has a flattened circular finial. The box extensions are good looking, again echoing the "mortar" shape. I suspect this style of vise dates from 1775 to 1825 I think they were made in England. The one that I have looks shop made, and the other possibly came from a manufactory. The legs are partially octagonalized (no such word). I do not use these vises. I suppose they should go to a worthy museum. Now, just what is that tab extension, anyway? Chris Turley suggests that if you miss with the hammer, you'll hit that thing instead of the washers, screw head, or box. One time, a few years back, Peter Ross of Wmsburg, was visiting my shop, and I was filing away. The subject of vises came up, and I asked him what those tabs were for. He said with a questioning rise to his voice, "To keep filings out of the works?" I'm open to receiving feedback about leg vises. I thank one and all for allowing me to be colored silver. Frank T. |
| Frank Turley <nudahonga at qwest.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 04:55:51 GMT |
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Knife Forging: Jeremy, Forging a knife blade has many general forging steps that take time and practice to learn. Play with a bunch of mild steel until you get the practice and those muscles built up. The curving problem is simple (when you know) bend the blank the other direction. How much? How far did your other blank curve? About that much. Its an art. When forging the tang you want to make it as large as possible at the blade end and have as big of corner radi as you can make. There are a few good knife sites but most don't have the details you are looking for. Books are still the way to go. Try a good general reference like Jack Andrews, The NEW Edge of the Anvil and one good knife reference like David Boye's Step-by-step Knifemaking. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 05:21:11 GMT |
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I was wanting to write a short story that involves a brief scene around a forge. A large forge and an old one, since the story is set in a medival fantasy setting. I was wondering if you could give me a detailed desription of what one of these forges looked like. And if you could possibly tell me the procedure for starting one of these up and stoking it and bringing the heat up to a acceptable level. Also could you tell me exactly how the bellows work. I heard or read somewhere that they force air under the coals and it helps super heat them. Also does this cause heat to build evenly or unenvenly so is used sparingly? One more thing I was going to have the scene be about the brocurement of arrow heads. Would a person forge these staright out of metal and beat them into shape, or would he melt metal down and pour it into a mold. I was wanting to be real to life, so could you tell me the procedure whichever one of those it really is. Not the cheesy flat head arrows you see in robin hood movies and things like that, but I am talking real bore type arrows made to fly far and penetrate armor and flesh. At least the designs of ones available in the dark ages. I only need the descrip for the arrow heads themselves not the arrow shaft and fletching. I know typically a blacksmith would not make arrows, it would fall to a bowyer/fletcher, but in my story this blacksmith is the best so the arrowheads come from him. Thanks in advance for any insight or help you could give me. |
| Greg <pxgb02 at yahoo.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 05:43:06 GMT |
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Forge: Greg, You are one of the first authors (we have had many come here) that asked questions and seemed to have a clue to the process. THANK YOU for thinking! Yes, the smith would have made the arrow points. The "fletcher" primarily assembles the arrows installing the points, knocks, and feathers (fletchings). Some industries specialized very early and this one was established in the stone age. I recommend you order a copy of Alex Bealer's "The Art of Blacksmithing". Its about traditional smithing and well illustrated. It focuses on 18th and 19th century smithing, however for the most part the smith's art has not changed in 3500 years. During your time period bellows would be a pair of single action bellows side by side. There would be a wooden lever arrangement so that when one expanded taking in fresh air the other compressed expelling air into the fire. The action is much like breathing and the "blast" approximates your blowing gently. There is a simple flap valve made of wood and leather over a hole in the bottom board of each single action bellows. There is no "exhaust" valve. They work like common fireplace or molders bellows if you have ever seen them. Modern bellows are double chambered (like two on top of each other) and connected to the fire via a pipe. Ancient bellows had slender funnel shaped nozzels and blew the air toward a hole in a "shield stone". The fire was either on the other side of the shield stone OR their was a clay pipe called a tuyere to extend the center of the fire some distance from the shield stone. The forced draft creates an intense heat in the charcoal fuel. It is hot enough at the center of the fire to melt steel AND set it on fire. So yes, you are right, the fire must be carefully controlled. The bellows was (is still) an excellent way to do this. After energetic pumping to get the fire up to heat, slow gentle pulls maintain the heat and produce a carburizing (non-oxidizing) fire. Wrought iron and steel are forged (heated and hammered) not cast. The casting scene in Conan the Barbarian is hollywood hype that is out of place. Bronze swords were cast. All iron/steel swords, knives, arrow points are forged. Steel arrow heads WERE those flat things like in the Robin Hood movies (they occasionaly get things right). They were flat with a socket for the arrow shaft. Most were made from two thin pieces forge welded together. See the discussions above and on the iForge page about forge welding. Welding this thin material without burning it up was a real art. After welding the arrowheads the smith would harden and temper them. Hardening consists of heating to a low red heat and quenching in water. This makes the steel VERY hard and brittle. Tempering is the gentle reheating to reduce the hardness a little and increase the toughness a lot. When the blacksmith tempers steel he polishes off some of the black scale with a file or stone and judges the temperature by the colors the steel turns. You've seen them, those rainbow colors that appear on heated steel. From the Earth comes Iron to make steel. The bellows makes the wind to excite the Fire. Water is used to cool and harden the Steel. Earth, Air, Fire and Water, blacksmiths were the first and truest alchemists. Let us know if you need more help or a technical proof reader. We also have a series of stories, myths and legends on our story page. Better yet, check our plans page (off the home page) for a brake drum forge and the 21st Century page for a cheap anvil and try it yourself! But be careful, its addictive. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 07:47:07 GMT |
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Frank Turley!!! WOW...pleased and honored to say the least. Speaking of post vises; Tony came up with an idea that seems splendid. If I understand it correctly, he replaces the pin that the moving leg pivots on with a cam operated by a foot pedal. Tony made his from scratch but I've been eyeing my post vises wondering how to make a conversion without trashing a fine old piece of equiptment....any Ideas? All my solutions do violence to the vise. Next question. I have an old Common Sense hammer with part of the hammer guide frame cracked off. When I got it it had an unsuccessful braising repair. I cut it off clean and fabricated/machined a replacement section all chamfered and ready to weld....preheated to 400 and using old nickle arc ,rod tried to weld it up...but the nickle rod foamed when run against the cast iron no matter how I set the arc welder. Finally got some stainless rod to run on the cast...stringer beads followed by immediate peening with an air hammer.Used 7018 between the stainless and the steel add on...10 hours of it. When i ground it to shape today, one section has cracking where the cast meets the rest. Any rod in my collection either runs very porus or cracks at the junction when I grind it out and try to fix it. The cast is as hard as the face of an anvil! It has pockets that boil and foam when I try to lay a bead on it...Tried most of my arc tricks to no avail...driving me nuts...help! I know, this aint welding chat, but it is repairing a hammer so I have an excuse...right? |
| Pete Fels - Tuesday, 05/15/01 08:11:04 GMT |
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Swage block stand: Bruce, welcome to the 19th century! Grin! When I want to use one of the swage block edges, I just set my swage blocks on my anvil "stump" next to the anvil. The height seems to work well that way. I've seen other stands made from angle iron. One leg of the angle is up and the other "in" so that the swage block is captured and can't slide out. I've also seen swage blocks with "trunnions" so that they can rotate in a frame. I know there are links to these from here, but I can't remember them. Pete, Thanks. I can't think of how to add the locking/clamping feature to a typical leg or post vise. To get maximum additional clamping, you need both legs to go all the way down to the floor and the over center clamp (vise grip) arrangement is near the floor and pushes the legs out to get more clamping after the screw is snugged up. Typical leg vises do not have both legs going to the floor and the legs are not strong enough to handle the additional loads put on them by the clamping arrangement. The Blacksmiths Journal had a design that used a hand lever. I have my vise bolted to a chunk of concrete so it is free standing. I have to say it is a great tool. And having it free standing and not bolted to a table is a real plus. You can work all around it instead of having to unclamp and reposition the work to get at the "back" side. I suppose the tabs on a leg vise serve their best purpose to keep scale and filings and dirt out of the screw. On my new vise, I'm leaving it exposed to the weather and dirt to see what happens. All the moving parts are easily replacable and after I see what fails, if anything, I will make the appropriate design modifications. Oooooo.... now that you have me thinking about it, I just had another idea. Just what I needed... another project.... Ahh well, keeps me out of the tavern. Mostly... |
| Tony <tca_b at mmmmmilwpc.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 12:31:37 GMT |
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I have a large number of long tapered sections to make for the branches of a tree Ive been commisioned to do. I'm thinking of using heavy wall pipe and making dies for the power hammer. My question is what shape should I make the dies, I,d probably use mainly 1" pipe (mabey some 1 1/2" also) not sure how thick on the wall though, and Id taper it to a point over about 2-3 feet. I was thinking of a die with three different size top and bottom shallow "V's" cut into it so I can move from the large v to the smallest as I draw the pipe out. I have fullering dies already and my normal flat dies but I dont think these will work so well for drawing out pipe, comments would be really appreciated. |
| shannell - Tuesday, 05/15/01 12:53:50 GMT |
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One more clarification... When I said you want an Open center valve for a press, I really should have said "tandem" center. An open center has all ports connected, so the cylinder will "float" in the open center position and pump flow will be directed to the tank. A tandem center has the cylinder ports blocked so it won't move and the pump flow is directed back to the tank. I appologize profusely for the massive consternation this probably caused. Grin. |
| Tony <tca_b at mmmmmilwpc.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 13:06:07 GMT |
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Swage Blocks: Bruce, The angle on the side of your block is the "draft" so that the pattern will pull out of the sand. On the typical block this should only be 1/16" to a max of 1/8" if the draft is all one direction. The taper will be half if the pattern is parted (mold seam) at the center. However, amature patternmakers often use a lot more draft than is necessary. It is also possible to make molds with "loose pieces" and have a finished part with no draft but this is relatively expensive and requires a professional pattern maker. The reason you see few new swage blocks with holes in them is that this requires making core boxes, another thing that most amature pattern makers do not understand or have the patience to create. Many of the very early blocks (18th century) that I have seen appear to be "personal" patterns. Each smith had his own. Access to the foundry was better than it is today and it was easier to get one-off castings made. Most of these blocks were simple shapes including a bowl or spoon mold and no holes (requiring core boxes). I classify the common blocks with all holes and standard side shapes as "industrial" blocks. These are the most common in the 19th and early 20th century. Some of these are relatively standard but every foundry that made blocks had their own pattern. Modern industrial blocks are all quite similar but early ones were often very thick and quite heavy for their size. Late 20th century blocks include industrial blocks and "art smith" blocks. These are the blocks of Wally Yeater, Josh Greenwood and others that are amature pattern makers that have had their personal blocks reproduced in quantity. Many of these pattern designs have been copied or stolen. Centaur Forge currently produces a copy of Wally Yeater's two piece block set and The Ornamental Iron Museum loans a pattern that was originaly made by Josh Greenwood. Original Yeater blocks are hand ground on every surface and should be collector's items. Josh's pattern is that long rectangular block with deep bowls and about 3/8" of draft (TOO much). He first started selling these at the first ABANA conference in Purchase NY and the last were terrible castings sold in Riply WV in 1984. Many of the old blocks that appear to be broken or worn are often bad castings that were "good enough" and sold. Some foundries poured the last dregs of iron to make blocks and they often have tremondous porosity and can be a very hard poor grade of iron that is useless for anything else. Like many smiths I have patterns that have only been cast once or twice. Currently I am working on productionizing them. That trunnion mounted block is made in Canada and sold by Kayne & Son. There was an old version of this style block in the tool collection at the 1998 ABANA conference. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 13:20:23 GMT |
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Frank, All of us who have read "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork", know you can write. Why don't YOU write "Leg Vises in America"? No one in this country is more qualified than you are and you've got access to a bunch of folks right here who would be proud to help with the leg work. And I'll put in my order for a signed copy right now. |
| Paw Paw Wilson <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 13:27:11 GMT |
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Pipe Forging: Shannell, I've seen it done on nearly flat (worn out) dies but special dies make it easier. A bottom die with a low "V" or gentle dip in the center works. Much of the process is skill in manipulation. You must forge gently and rapidly while rotating the work. With the low taper or dish in the dies you could work 2" (50mm) pipe down to 1/2" (13mm) solid with one set of dies. The top die can be flat The edges on both should be heavily radiused to prevent marking the work. Standard practice is for the "radius" to actualy be an oval section that slopes gently before becoming the radius. The "V" die can also have a gentle taper from front to back. This makes the sides of the V compound angles. There should be ample flat remaining on the sides of the bottom die so that when struck the upper die is not hitting corners or unequal heights. Note that the walls of the pipe upset as you make the pipe smaller and quickly become solid. You may want to flux the end of the inside of the pipe and take a welding heat just as the pipe closes. This will give you good solid material that you should be able to forge into a leaf or frond or whatever. . . Always be careful when forging pipe that one end is open and that you avoid quenching the pipe in water. Steam from the hot end will come out of the cold end and can cause severe burns. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 13:43:31 GMT |
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Bruce, one good design I've seen for a swage block is a stump that has a slot cut out of the top to fit the block in on edge. That way it can fit in the slot for working on the sides or flat. Shannell, I just saw Clifton Ralph demo power hammer forging & he had a die similar to what you describe for drawing down pipe. Instead of V's his had wide U's. His worked great. Frank, I'll second Paw Paw on the book! |
| Mike Roth <mcroth at adelphia.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 13:48:24 GMT |
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Hello, I have recently acquired an old Champion #1 hand crank blower. I have hooked it up to my forge and it works well, but I have a few questions about it. There are two bolt/fittings on the crank side that appear to be places for adding lubricant. The top bolt looks like a place for adding gear oil (which I did), but the bottom bolt houses a fitting which I do not recognize. Is it some kind of grease fitting? If it is how do I get the grease in? It is not a standard grease nipple. thanks for any help you can give me. Robert Thomson |
| Robert Thomson <thomson at biomed.med.yale.edu> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 14:03:40 GMT |
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Bruce, congrats on the swage block. I have one of the same blocks that you bought. I got it at ABANA last year. I have been very pleased with it. I finished mine with a die grinder and smoothed out all of the sand dimples in the casting. This took only about an hour and when done I had all the forms nice and clean. These blocks (mine at least) seem to be a high quality casting. I didn't worry about making the corners 90 deg. These are nice and portable blocks, for small stuff so that it won't cool before I get to work it, mine is used next to the fire, on the table of the forge. I also use the stand my small anvil is on (107#). The anvil sits loose on the stand held in only with guides shaped to the bottom of the anvil. The swage block fits nicely in the same place when I remove the anvil. I have also used the swage block ON the small anvil for small work. I suppose if you were to need to really WHALE on the block it would need to be mounted more securely. You have a quality tool that should last you and your kids and their kids their lifetimes! |
| Wayne Parris <benthar at pacbell.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 14:26:05 GMT |
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I'm a novice hobbyist, recently moved to Baltimore. After several years of monthly guild meetings of the Clinch River Blacksmith Guild in East Tennessee and a couple of trips down to the SE Regional in Madison Ga, I have finally put together enough equipment to have a garage shop. I have an NC Tool Whisper Momma propane gas forge--I can't impose coal smoke on my Baltimore City rowhouse neighbors! Anyway, I've seen a lot of demos and made a few things, but I'm mostly lacking skill and need lots of practice. My question is about stock: A local steel supplier I've found sells 20-foot lengths of A36 with minimum $150 order. If I'm going to spend $150 on steel, how much of what should I get to have a good collection of stock? My interests and needs for projects include tongs (lots of tongs!) and projects like hooks, candlesticks, and other decorative household objects. I'd eventually like to be doing furniture and gates, but I need to hone my skills with smaller projects first, I think. I tend to enjoy working with square stock over round. Anyway, I'd really hate to order $150 of steel just to find myself wishing I'd just gotten less 1/2 inch round and more 5/8 square, or sorry that I missed some other shape or size I found I really wanted, or something like that. So how much of what stock makes a well-stocked smithy? (And if anyone happens to have recommendations for good Baltimore-area suppliers I'd love to know. Durrett & Shepherd is the supplier I've found). |
| Nathan <nate at jhu.edu> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 14:33:22 GMT |
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Robert: The bottom bolt should be a kind of locknut arrangement. It is for taking up slack in the fan shaft, i.e., you tighten that bolt and the fan is forced outwards into its bearings. If you overtighten it, the fan will lock up. Take out the bolt and fill that hole with a good general purpose heavy grease. Then tighten the bolt until the fan stops wobbling but not so tight that movement is restricted. If you take off the cover of the gearbox, you will see what the adjustment does. And you should take off the cover and clean it out with some kind of crudcutter before you refill it with oil. Oh, and only put in enough oil to cover the bottom of the big gear by about an inch. Oil will be spread to the other gears. If you put in more, it will run out of the central shaft hole in great quantities. It will slowly run out that hole anyway (it's a design element, keeps dirt out) so don't worry about a little drip. On my champion #1, I have trouble with the screws that hold the fan housing to the gearbox backing out and locking the fan. |
| Alan L <longmire at premiernet.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 14:39:51 GMT |
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Stock & Suppliers: Nathan, THAT is a difficult problem. Keep poking around until you find a supplier that will not impose a minimum on you. OR contact members of your local ABANA chapter, ask them where they buy OR if they need to get together withsome to makeup minimum orders occasionaly. The quantities of 1/2 vs 5/8 and round vs square are difficult and depend on the style of work you are doing. Style also determines how much round and square stock you use. Generaly, working alone without a power hammer you are going to want small stock for the first year (if you work regularly as a hobby). I'd get one each of the following and then finish the order with 1/2" square. 1/4" square (CF if necessary) 3/8" square (CF if necessary) 1/2" square 5/8" square 3/4" square 3/16" x 1" flat (CF if necessary) 1/4" x 1" rectangular 3/8" x 1" rectangular 1/8" x 1-1/2" flat bar 3/8" round (CF if necessary) 1/2" round Most of these sizes should be available in Hot Roll but some will have to be purchased in cold drawn (cold finish CF bar). The HR bar will be in 20 foot lengths the CF in 12 foot. IF they have a cutting charge take a GOOD hacksaw and spare blade with you so you cut the bar to haul it. I've done this in the parking lot or drive way more than once. Normaly you can carry a 12 foot bar without cutting it in an 8 foot bed pickup. I cut 20's into 12's and 8's. You never know when you are going to need a piece over ten foot. . . For small quantites of square and round stock in other sizes some hardware stores or places like Lowes carry 3 foot lengths. High prices but no minimum! The stock will have a thin zinc plating on it. You can burn this off if your forge is outdoors or in a very well (forced) ventilated area. Some small fabricators (not railing guys) and welding or machine shops will sell bar stock if you are not a pest. Their stock may be a little rusty and not perfectly straight and more than the wharehouse price (they hauled it and paid the minimum). But if you can buy one stick at a time it is worth it. Ask if they have any jobs using small bar with leftover drops. Tell them what you are doing, it helps sometimes. Most of these guys dream of getting back to their metalworking "roots" and may feel good helping you. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 16:12:29 GMT |
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Looking for plans to make a propane gas forge |
| jim <jbuchanan6 at home.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 16:17:46 GMT |
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Whats up with forging pipe? Seems to be a topic that is getting a lot of interest. |
| JohnC <careatti at croxx.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 16:20:13 GMT |
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Gas Forge: Jim, Look on our plans page (off the home page). The burner page has links to Ron Reil's page and some other articles. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 16:41:56 GMT |
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I have a question about aluminum. I am NOT a blacksmith or anything even close. I am an artist, I work mainly in clay. However, a friend and I have started a project using aluminum sheet. We have been using the stuff you buy as 'roof flashing'. Anyways, it is very 'springy'. It doesn't want to hold the shape that we put it in. We are sculpting cones from cut out circles with a piece of the pie removed. My question is, is there a way of getting it to hold it's cone shape? We would like to weld the seam, but it would be nice if it held it's shape on it's own to make the seam welding easier. The point of our cone is never as smoothly bent as we would like, due to the sping action. I don't have a forge, but I do have an oxygen torch for light welding. Will heating the aluminum up and quenching it make it more pliable? ANy suggestions are welcome! |
| Mike <mmorisey at cjnetworks.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 16:54:49 GMT |
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Aluminium flashing: Mike, You CAN anneal (soften) aluminium by heating it but in thin sheet it is very difficult to do it without warping the sheet or burning holes in it. At best the surface would be oxidized and quite a mess. Welding a seam in this thin material would be very difficult. It also takes special equipment to weld aluminium. Normally flashing is pretty soft and easy to work. To make a seam in this I recommend a bent lock seam. To do this you will need some extra material. On the inside of the cone bend the extra to a 90 degree angle, then fold the two vertical edges over themselves and crimp with pliers. Bending straight lines in this thin material can be done with a steel straight edge or two. Once the seam is locked together the cone will hold a relatively round symetrical shape. To roll a cone that holds it shape you need a set of sheet metal rolls that alows the rolls to be set at angles. In complete cones (with points) the rolls need to be as small as posible for the material thickness. The problem with cones is that theoretical point. I would try pulling the sheet over a corner like making a scrolled up piece of paper. Hold the point stationary as you rotate the sheet stationary over an edge. Instead of welding or crimping you could also just glue an overlaping joint with epoxy glue. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 17:29:18 GMT |
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I'm trying to locate a foundry that will prepare and pour steel investment castings, in one hundred or less each quanities. The parts are fairly simple,fit in the hand size items.I will supply the wax cast parts. Also does anyone have any info on B&H Presion in Tennesse? Many Thanks! |
| Joe <sjowen at duke.edu> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 17:45:42 GMT |
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Is there any way that I can make something, such as nails or bullets, in the way somone would do blacksmithing, but using tin or something that would not be as hot? |
| post 697 <hotporsche115 at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 18:16:02 GMT |
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Guru: Need your help. Put together a small wine rack, with my mig welder, prior to welding I sand blasted all parts so the are nice and clean, (a nice gun metal gray in color) my question is this, I know I cant spray it well enough with a spray can to get into all the nooks and cranies, and to have it powder coated will run about $75.00 more then I can afford to pay. Is there a way to coat the item with some kind of oil finish that I can put on quite liberaly and then wipe off the excess, and if this is a poss. do I do it hot or cold. Any and all help you can give me would be great. Mike |
| Mike M <mcruder at aol.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 18:37:10 GMT |
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Low temp metal: Post 697, Nails are forged, cut or swaged. Bullets are cast in molds (metal melted and poured). Blacksmithing means forging the black metal (iron). Other metals can be forged such as gold, silver, bronze and aluminium. Gold can be forged and shaped cold. It doesn't work harden or oxidize. Those are some of the traits that make it so valuable. Silver can be cold worked but it workhardens and must be heated occasionaly to anneal it. It also oxidizes an must be cleaned. Bronze is forged at over 1000°F. Aluminum is about the same. However both are difficult to handle as they conduct heat VERY fast and the melting point is not too much higher than the forging temperature. Both oxidize heavily and require chemical cleaning. Low carbon steel is by far the cheapest, easiest and most convienient metal to work. It is also strong and relatively easy to weld. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 18:43:57 GMT |
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I visited the Herbert Hoover National Historic Site just east of Iowa City, Iowa. They have a really nice blacksmith shop but no access to blacksmiths who want to do demonstrations for their visitors. If anyone is interested please give Ranger Dan or the Superintendent Mary a call at 319-643-2541. |
| kimberly mann <kimberly_mann at nps.gov> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 18:58:08 GMT |
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Oil Finish: Mike, oil finishes rely on the forge scale for color and adhesion. Sandblasted finishes need to be painted. Zinc cold galvanizing first, then red oxide or black neutral primer surfacer (to seal the zinc) and then a top coat of your choice. All the above are available in spray cans OR commercial quantities. However they may not all be available from the same place. Auto paint suppliers generaly carry all three. To get the zinc into nooks and crannies I spray some in a can then use a brush to run it down into these small places turning the work over so it runs down hill. Then spray a smooth even coating. Its a bit tricky as the color and texture is indentical to sand blasted steel. The primer and top coats will get far enough in to do the job. Even using spray cans the supplies may be half the cost of the plastic coat. However, the three component system is a much better job. You also have an infinite choice of colors and can apply hand rubbed "gilding" to specific parts. Leaving out the cost of finishing is a common problem among smiths. This is a VERY significant cost in materials and labor. It is also what the customer SEES. . . The paint will cost as much or more than the steel. The labor may amount to 20% and as much as 30% of the job if you have to pay a sandblaster. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 19:04:22 GMT |
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Hi,My sons class is having a mideival festival on may 24th and he picked the blacksmith booth,so he has to have information for what blacksmiths did back then and he has to make,swords,anvils,whatever a blacksmith made back then.I am ignorant to all of this,We live in a small town in Indiana,and the teacher is expecting about 1000 people to come to this festival,She also said if we could find a blacksmith that would like to sit in the booth with him,that would be great but i have no blacksmith to do that.I need information about mideival blacksmithing,and possibly pictures,pictures would be great that way we will get a great idea on how to make the things they did back then...Please respond asap.Thanks Debbie |
| Debbie <lordsservant at earthlink.net> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 21:16:27 GMT |
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guru, I got a mailer awhile back about an overstock site for one of the big supply houses, Graingers, McMaster-Carr etc. I can't remember the address. Would you or a helper be able to point me in the right direction? I'm looking for a 15 hp 3/ph motor for a converter. thanks |
| Pete <Ravnstudio at aol.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 23:15:21 GMT |
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Festival: Debbie, You still have time to contact Indiana Blacksmiths Association. This is an ABANA chapter. Members are not necessarily professionals so one may be one of your neighbors and you don't know it. Otherwise, Get out the cardboard and be ready to make props. Without knowing your son's age it is hard to determine how much detail you need. But the tools needed for a blacksmith would be, bellows and forge, anvil, hammers and vise. Small tools would be tongs, punches and chisels. An armourer was a specialist and needed more tools including Shears, Stakes (little anvil like things that are anchored in a bench or stump). Knife and Sword makers had grinding wheels that were hand, foot or water powered. Check the pictures on our armour page and the step-by-step how-to on making helmets. Also see the image link at the bottom of the page to "16th Century Armoury" There is very little difference between these tools today and millenia ago. The tools in the 16th Century armoury will be VERY close. Anvils were the most different. The modern anvil has a long horn that wasn't developed until the 18th Century. Old anvils were boxy simpler affairs. Paint it black or dark rust red. The top would have been clean and shiney. The general blacksmith made everything metal that was used. Tools for himself and other crafts people being the most important. Then hardware liks hinges, nails and spikes. Plow points for farmers, and pieces for the machinery of the era including bands for mill shafts and mill stones. Of course there was horseshoeing and wagon work. Horses were shod then and wagon wheels had iron tires as wooden wheels still do. Little boys (many big ones too) think immediately of weapons of war. However, the vast majority of Blacksmithing was common everyday items. Axes for wood cutters, hammers and chisels for stone cutters, draw knives, saws, plane irons and chisels for woodworkers, plows and hoes for farmers. Common spoons, spatulas and cooking knives. Hardware and wagon parts mentioned above. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 23:23:36 GMT |
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Sale mailer: Pete, I get dozens of these every week and they immediately go to the circular file. Sorry. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 23:27:42 GMT |
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Festival: Debbie, There is still time to get a copy of Alex Bealer's Art of Blacksmithing. This reference is primarily about 18th and 19th century blacksmithing, but like I said the tools haven't changed but very little in millenia and the techniques haven't changed at all. The book has lots of illustrations and only costs about $11 US. It may also be available in your public library. If your son has a genuine interest in blacksmithing this is a great book. It has a lot of text but it is not hard to read. An excellent gift. THEN there are the Americana books by Eric Sloane. His illustrated Museum of Early American Tools has many blacksmith made items and is commonly found in public libraries. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 23:53:42 GMT |
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Have any of y'all heard about Iron Fest, I'm think'n about goin. |
| omega_d <j14oey at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 05/15/01 23:55:52 GMT |
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Ironfest: Omega, It's been listed on the Hammer-In twice. Frank Turley is one of the demonstrators. Should be great fun and very educational. If you are looking for tools you better take a truck! |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 00:32:41 GMT |
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Powder coating, Mike asked about coating a winerack and said powder coating was too expensive. I get a lot of stuff powder coated here in Adelaide Australia and I laugh to myself every time the owner quotes me on a job, he could double or triple his prices and I still get them done there its so cheap. eg: if you look on the "theforge" photopoint site under "work" http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1169182 (you are all members of the "theforge" mail list arent you???? :) ) I have a bookcase that I make a lot of and he coats these in a single coat of textured black for $11 Australian thats about $5.50 US dollars , I dropped off a large sign surround the other day and to sandblast, primer undercoat and spangled copper topcoat was $50. I hate painting, I dont mind clear coating things for indoor work but any thing that would need paint or high volume like my bookcases I use powder coating, look around you must be able to find somewhere that could do it cheaply. |
| shannell - Wednesday, 05/16/01 00:46:00 GMT |
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Debbie: There's a nice picture of the workings of a Viking style forge in the News, Volume 10, page 11 ("International Edition"). If you do an internet search for "Mastermyr" it will probably pop up half a dozen sites on a Viking Age tool chest, too. This will give you a good baseline, since the tools evolved very slowly (if at all) over the next 600 or so years. The tools were simple, the skills were complex. Kimberly: Thanks for the nice note on Herbert Hoover NHS. Maybe some good smiths will help our folks out. Swage block- Thanks for the hints; some useful ideas there. It's the V-shaped swages, not the block, that seem a little obtuse. Then again, I seem a little less than acute this week too. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Come viking with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 01:30:44 GMT |
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Bruce, One stand that I've seen was built out of angle iron. Looked like a truncated pyramid. But in the center, the angle was cut to provide a slot to set the swage block on edge. Looked very handy, and is what I intend to do with the two that have custody of. |
| Paw Paw Wilson <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 02:36:46 GMT |
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I'm a new antique forge owner. It is a C & O mfg. brand, from Chicago Hts. , Ill, It resembles a BBQ with a wooden handle on the side. The handle pulls a weighted bellcrank which in turn pulls a leather strap attached to a freewheel clutch in the flywheel/pully. Can someone give me an approximate date for these ? The blades on the cast iron blower fan appear to be rusted off, Does anyone make a replacement part for these ?? Also I have a Peter Wright Anvil approximatly 120-150 lb dated 1922 is this a quality brand ?? thanks for your help......Dale |
| Dale Powell <Dalepowell at webtv.net> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 03:45:52 GMT |
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Obtuse "V's": Bruce, they should be exactly 90° or 60° or 120° +/-1° as the case may be. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 03:50:54 GMT |
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Forge: Dale, That is a Canedy Otto forge. Probably dates from around 1900 +/- 20 years. I'm not sure when C-O started business. Been out of business a LONG time. No parts are available. Forges like these generaly sell for $100 to $200 US in good condition. Someone may be able to make and rivet new blades on the blower but as-is its not worth much. Peter Wright's were a good anvil but condition is everything. In mint condition it would sell for $400 but in rough condition less than $100. The weight is marked on it in English hundred weights (see our 21st Century page). Since most anvils sell by weight that 30 pound difference is a lot. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 03:59:08 GMT |
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I have a solid bronze railroad padlock from Mcmaster Carr and need to antique (age)- thought just heating in forge might do it- not so- any ideas? Vinegar or something else. Thank you. |
| tom poulin <poulintom at hotmail.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 04:21:19 GMT |
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Aging Lock: Tom, don't heat it. There are springs inside that won't be springs anymore if you heat the lock. First strip off any lacquer with fingernail polish remover, "strip-it" or lacquer thinner. Then roughen the surface a little with sandpaper. Next there are several things that may work; Apply hydrogen peroxide and let sit. Then reapply and sprinkel on iron filings. OR pack in "Miracal Grow" and dampen. Give it a couple days. It is recommended that you test any chemical finish on something before using it on a valuable part. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 05:34:41 GMT |
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GURU, Re your May 9 Forge Welding bit, I don't remember telling my students to try a forge weld every day before heading for the house. However, many of us have been known to arc weld a length of scrap to a workpiece to avoid using tongs. I will often lap weld them instead. Good practice. |
| Frank Turley <nudahonga at qwest.net> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 10:19:44 GMT |
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Quote: Frank, Maybe you were quoting someone else and I got confused. I'll fix the article. I'm working on part two. . |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 12:25:58 GMT |
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Frank, I have heard (read actually) several other people quote, you as saying "Do at least one forge weld every day". So whether you actually said it or not, it's now a matter of historical record that you did and denying it won't do you any good! :) A bit like Marie Antoinette and "Let them eat cake!" |
| adam whiteson <adam at whiteson.org> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 14:02:25 GMT |
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Guru, When you posted iForge #91 on Hinge Benders, I ordered Streeter's book. This is a very nice book IMO but after peering at the photos of the work in progress and trying to figure out what the heck was going on, I realized how much effective is a good drawing. It would have taken me a lot of trying to figure out how his hinge bender worked from the photos but just a quick glance at your sketch and it's obvious. You do draw great sketches, by the way. |
| adam whiteson <adam at whiteson.org> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 14:14:25 GMT |
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Streeter Benders: Adam, I saw a guy at a demo struggle with a Streeter bender he had made and not tested. . . Realy blew his demo. You have to closely read the fine print to understand what he is doing. I would prefer to have both drawings and photos but generaly don't have time to do both. Streeter cheated a bit. He is demonstrating semi-modern methods explaining how to do them with common smithing tools. Meanwhile he had a lathe and milling machine (among other machines) in the "back". Presswork dies CAN be cobbled out of tool steel by hand but it is very painstaking work. I immediately go to the mill, lathe and surface grinder myself. Which is what most production smiths must do to be competitive. You can use modern tools and still produce a perfectly traditional product if you choose to. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 14:50:07 GMT |
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Since I see that I must be specific, I would like to ask if anybody knows anything about the ancient history of blacksmithing. Ancient as in Tublacaine from the Bible something like that. |
| Jonathan <romkid39455 at hotmail.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 17:08:35 GMT |
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Biblical References: Although the Bible is not specific on blacksmithing references the battle between David and Goliath is the story of an Iron age culture meeting a bronze age culture. The Philistines are mentioned to have a "war like" reputation. In fact they were in the Iron Age and their Bronze Age enemies didn't fare too well. A big man with iron armor and a sword that cut through both your weapons and armor would have definitely SEEMED like a giant. Ironicaly the battle was won with stone age technology. Or maybe that is the point of the story. See posts in the archives: Tuesday, 01/19/99 01:21:36 GMT Saturday, 10/21/00 17:05:06 GMT Monday, 03/12/01 16:58:16 GMT Search for Goliath Same story in three different contexts all about the history of blacksmithing from different points of view. One would even make a nice paper. . . |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 18:42:35 GMT |
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HI I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE OUT THERE HAS A RECIPE FOR THE CLAY USED IN CLAY TEMPERING I TRIED A FEW THAT WERE RECOMMENDED ON WEB PAGES BUT TO GET IT SO IT DOES'NT CRACK MAND FLAKE OF IT IS USUALLY TO THICK OR COARSE TOM WORK INTO ANY KIND OF PATTERN. THANKS-CHRIS |
| CHRIS MAKIN <CFM15 at HOME.COM> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 19:01:50 GMT |
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Is there a maximum diameter for a flue pipe? I have access to some 14" pipe and was wondering if this would draw better than a 12" pipe. |
| Breezeway Forge. - Wednesday, 05/16/01 19:03:34 GMT |
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Is there a maximum diameter for a flue pipe? I have access to some 14" pipe and was wondering if this would draw better than a 12" pipe. |
| Breezeway Forge. - Wednesday, 05/16/01 19:04:03 GMT |
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14" (356mm) pipe: Breezeway, Great! Actualy perfect. Most folks use smaller because of availability and expense. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 21:43:48 GMT |
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Tempering Clay: Chris, What kind of clay are you using? You have to start with a fine grade of porceline (high alumina) clay. When making glaze many ceramic mixes have a little gum in them to help bind the clay together. Anyone out there have a sure-fire mix? I've never been into the Japanese sword thing. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 21:49:36 GMT |
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ADAM, I know this. At my age, at the end of the day, and when I'm draggin' ash, I *don't want* to do a forge weld. CHRIS, I speak about the Japanese use of clay on the blade NOT from experience. The information is from "The Craft of the Japanese Sword" by Kapp & Yoshihara, Kodansha International, 1987. The mixture is about equal proportions of clay, charcoal powder, and pulverized sandstone (omura). Clay is the insulator, omura helps prevent cracking/shrinking. Charcoal helps adjust the rate of heating and cooling. Water is added to obtain the correct viscosity, and a thin "slip" is applied with a spatula from the cutting edge to about the medial length line of the blade. The thick portion of the blade is given a 1/8" to 1/4" thick coating of the clay along the sides to the medial line where it meets the thin coating. The thick back will also be coated. The book also shows an *ashi* being created by laying thin strips of clay perpendicular to or angled toward the cutting edge. These give pearlite to mix intermittently with the hardened edge. The clay dries for one hour or more. Yoshindo runs the sword in a charcoal fire, back of blade down for about l5 passes. When it's about 700C, he turns it over cutting edge down. When quenched, the cutting edge side is bright cherry to orange, and the back is medium cherry. Laminated woodworking tools are quenched in tepid water, so I assume the blades are, as well. Stir the water with a heated chunk of iron to warm it. Quench cutting edge down. You may or may not get a "hamon", a heat treatment line running lengthwise. Its appearance depends on how good you are, and whether you did everything just right. It is pretty involved (an understatement). Get the book. Buena suerte. |
| Frank Turley <nudahonga at qwest.net> - Wednesday, 05/16/01 23:48:24 GMT |
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Have you guys seen the 500 lb. Peter Wright anvil and stand that's up for sale on ebay? (item #1144975431) Has anyone seen one of those stands before? Bidding is at $1525.00 now and it's probably gonna take around $2000.00 to buy. Is it worth that? |
| Dave <cimport at swbell.net> - Thursday, 05/17/01 00:04:56 GMT |
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Peter Wright: Dave, The cast iron stands were available in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Peter Wrights were one of the best and BIG ones are fairly rare and 500# is very rare. Generaly they don't bring $4/pound unless they are in VERY good condition. This one is in good but not perfect condition. It shows a lot of use. But the large size and the stand add a lot to it. I doubt the statement about being the "only Peter Wright stand in existance" is true. I've seen a lot of cast iron anvil stands and at least ONE to fit a PW. Of course it went to scrap increasing the rarity of others. . . Since the reserve hasn't been met you never know. . . OBTW- Its not unusual for big anvils to still go for $1/pound. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 00:42:28 GMT |
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Yo! Last time I wrote, got excellent advice about getting rid of rust in the joint of a 6 inch post-vise: heat. worked just fine. This time, I am looking for help about a small hammer. It is not a trip hammer . It is a post stand, with a motor at the rear, an anvil built into the frame up front, and a pedal that activates a WOODEN arm that makes a shaft go up and down like a regular hammer, only this shaft is no more than 1 inch diam. and a foot long. So this thing must be used for finishing or something. I am trying to figure out if there are dies or something to attach to the end of this little shaft that goes up and down above the anvil .The anvil itself is flat but machined flat,with screw holes to accept something. It has not been beaten upon. None of the used equipment dealers in Montreal or elsewhere in Québec seemed to know what it was used for. I got it for $50. It was lying around Canadair Ltd, an airplane maker at the time, noe purchased by Bombardier. So there. Any ideas? I will use it, but anyone knowing more than I do about it would sure save me a LOT of experimenting..... Merci. And God Bless. |
| gary from quebec <forjon at sympatico.ca> - Thursday, 05/17/01 02:12:39 GMT |
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Saw the Peter Wright on ebay. Wish I had 2K to drop on it. Considering I have a cast iron anvil with a steel plate welded in the top, it looks REAL good to me. |
| chris bernard <cbernard53 at hotmail.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 03:09:25 GMT |
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Pete Fels There are four types of cast (generally speaking), Gray cast, white cast, malleable, nodular/ductile cast. If the broken surface of the cast looks white,and you stated it was very hard,you may have white cast iron. White cast has virtually no ductility. It is (sorry to say) considered unweldable. White cast iron was rapidly cooled to give it strength, but it also makes it very brittle. No amount of peining or preheat/post heat will help *IF* indeed this is what you have. A mechanical replacement part is the best you can hope for. If you continue to try to weld on white cast it will continue to run cracks after it cools. Drilling holes in the end of these cracks will not stop them. Usually there are microstructure cracks that will widen as the welded metal tries to contract/expand with the application of heat or the loss of the heat (cooling). If you want to try again, preheat to approximately 900 degrees F. The whole part(s). Keep the metal between 600 degrees F and 1200 degrees F. Make your weld. Allow the welded part to cool *VERY* slowly. Something like 50 degrees per hour. V.E.R.Y slow. Keep the amperage as low as possible to limit dilution and depth of penetration. Keep the arc in the puddle, don't weave side to side. Don't make the litle circles that most welders think are necessary. Weaving the puddle just adds dilution to the weld properties and gives a thin edge to the puddle. Circles also aid dilution. Hope you find a repair for your blacksmithing equipment. |
| Steve Rutterbush <Hammerdown Forge> - Thursday, 05/17/01 03:34:08 GMT |
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Odd Hammer: Gary, This sounds like a sheet metal (planishing) hammer. Look on our Power hammer Page under Pettingell Hammers. Yours sounds like an earlier type but may be just that. Early aircraft and automobile bodies were shaped with a combination of English Wheel, small power hammer and lots of hand work. Just think of all those cowlings and wing fillets and tips. . . Most of this was done in soft aluminium so the equipment was not very heavy. Aircraft restorers, custom aircraft and custom autobody shops still use all this "odd" equipment. They also did a LOT of riveting with small hammers AND it was not uncommon to find entirely custom machines of this type. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 03:36:23 GMT |
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Guru Thanks for the info on forging a tomahawk out of a rail road spike, gave it a try today with real good success, I need a lot more practice but it turned out fair for the first one.The instructions are great. I have a 150 lb vulcan I'm thinking about selling, it has a real good and smooth face, what would be a good asking price? Thanks for all the good info. Bill |
| Bill <camper at yhti.net> - Thursday, 05/17/01 03:48:59 GMT |
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Thanks Steve R...your advice at least sheds some light on my frustration and gives some more technique to apply.. |
| Pete F - Thursday, 05/17/01 07:15:20 GMT |
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Guru, can you tell me how carbide insert cutting tools are made? Are they compressed and what exactly is the composite? thanks Scott |
| Scott <vickrey at easilink.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 11:52:46 GMT |
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I noticed the discussion about leg vises above. There is a book in the works on these vises. I am not going to reveal the authors name because I haven't asked permission to do so. However, I can tell you that it will be in a format similar to Postman's book. I'll try to get the author to annouce a release date. |
| Paul <wroughtman at yahoo.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 12:04:20 GMT |
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Vulcan Anvil: Bill, Being a steel faced cast iron anvil there are those that love them, and those that hate them. Originaly they were not as expensive as wrought or cast steel anvils. Todays anvil market is quite volatile so prices vary a lot. However most anvils never sell for less than $1/pound except the all cast iron door stops or those in really bad condition. Among blacksmiths $2/pound is average selling price when starting at $2.50 or so. If you get in a hurry to sell or don't advertise you will almost always get less. I live near a small to medium size city (50K/100K area) and sold half a dozen anvils in one weekend with a small classified ad and got my asking price (within 10%) for all of them. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 14:10:38 GMT |
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Want to build a propane forge for odd and large pieces in which the fire box can be stacked to fit the job. Maybe 2 cubic feet max. Any advice on the burners? Have the Hans Peot pipe forge plans. Have built atmospheric pipe forge that works quite well. |
| Rik Mettes <Heartmtnforge at excite.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 14:11:08 GMT |
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Carbide: Scott, This is what is known as a cemented or "sintered" material. The material is classified as refractory metal carbide. Powdered carbide and a small amount of cobalt are mixed together then pressed tightly together. Afterwards the pieces are cooked in a furnace with a protective gas (hydrogen) to weld the material together. There are a variety of high tech methods involved as this is a very competitive business. Hundreds of tons of carbide inserts are used every year in the machine tool industry. Without their long wearing and precision size and shape, numericaly controlled machine tools would be impossible. Carbides base metals include, Niobium, Tungsten, Titanium, Tantalum, Chromium and Aluminium. These can be in the form of Nitrides, Carbides or oxides. The binder may be Nickle, Iron, cobalt. These are used in simple or complex mixtures so the range of material and properties are bewildering. Adjusting the proportions of the binder changes the strength and hardness. Like tempering steel there is a best balance that must be achieved between strength and hardness for every application. Carbides are generaly considered the next hardest thing to diamond and it takes a diamond wheel to grind most carbides. In manufacturing the inserts are pressed to finished shape to avoid the high cost of grinding this hard material. Carbide is used as clamp-in inserts, brazed on tips and solid material that is ground to shape such as drills and milling cutters. These solid carbide tools are the most expensive of their class. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 14:41:58 GMT |
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Stacked forge: Rik, My big forge is a stacked unit using a blower burner. No matter what type burner you use it must be sized to the enclosure. With atmospheric burners there is a very careful balance that must be maintained and a narrow enclosure volume range. If you look at the NC-TOOL units on Bruce Wallace's page you will see forges using from 1 to 12 burners. Each burner has some adjustment range so as the number increases so does the range of the assembled burners. Blower type units have a wider range but you must still maintain that balance or flash back will occur in the burner. I used a small blower with a rheostatic control. This is easy to adjust but at low speed is rather tweeky and tends to creep. I also used a small solenoid valve that is somewhat of a bottleneck. It requires higher than normal pressure to let in sufficient gas. The forge works well with about a 1 cuft enclosure. However, two 40# propane cylinders will not keep up with it. After several hours the cylinders will freeze up. This is starting with full cylinders. Starting with less than full cylinders they freeze up in much shorter time. Yep, I need a big bulk tank. . . I point these things out to show that a lot can go wrong. However, I like my stacked forge. I can arrange it to heat long stock one day and then for melting brass in a crucible the next. This flexability has a cost. You need a lot of refractory brick and it really helps to have some of the long oversized ones. They also have a short life due to moving them and using them loose. I was lucky enough to buy a pickup load of a mixed lot of bricks including some insulating bricks. Otherwise this would have been be a pricey venture. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 15:11:36 GMT |
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Stacked forge: To get less fuel consumption, you could wrap the stacked brick with kaowool or board insulation. It won't make the forge get up to temperature much faster, but once it is up to temp, the heat loss would be less, so it would run hotter or use less fuel or you could run a bigger forge from the same tank size. Watch the loose fibers from moving the kaowool or board around though. Don't want to breathe those fibers. Even a heat shield bent up from thin shiny aluminum or stainless steel and placed next to, but not touching the brick will dramatically lower fuel consumption. And it will make it cooler to work next to. Just a thought.... |
| Tony <tca_b at mmmmmilwpc.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 15:46:29 GMT |
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Insulation: Tony, Good comments. I stack insulating brick on most of my brick stack. I use heat shields to protect the blower parts and controls. One layer of sheet metal with a 1" air gap on both sides and vented or open at the top converts that infrared to hot air and keeps a box full of relays at room temperature. The "base" of my forge is bar grating that has bricks set on edge resting on it. A couple inches below this there is a sheet metal heat shield. This is NOT an insulating arrangement but a heat disapation setup. The bar grating acts like cooling fins. Keeping the bottom cool enough not to sag. The sheet metal is another shield protecting what ever is below the forge. If I had some Kaowool when I built the forge I would have added riser bars to the bar grating and put a layer under the bricks. Rigid insulation board might be better. An option to a stacked forge is a platform "floor" as above and lift off shells. The shells could be built using a variety of methods, blanket, bricks or molded. A steel frame and lifting lug would be necessary for the heavier refractories. Just an idea. . . |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 16:34:47 GMT |
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Does anyone have information on the care and adjustment of an approx. 25lb.power hammer with the following name cast into the pulley housing "THE KERRIHARD CO, Red Oak Iowa. Thank-you |
| David H. Byers <david.byers at omnova.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 19:58:39 GMT |
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I need any and all information on the care and adjustment on a 25lb. approx. KERRIHARD CO, RED OAK IOWA. Thank-you |
| David H. Byers <david.byers at omnova.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 20:01:13 GMT |
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Kerrihard: David, One word, OIL. The enemy of all these small machines is they get run without oil. They haven't been made in many years so there are no parts. The book Pounding out the Profits has a Kerrihard poster on the cover and some history of the company. There are no operating instructions. Clutches on mechanical hammers are designed to slip to control the speed. Some require the lining to be oiled to prevent sticking. Linkage adjustments include stroke and height. When run on long hard hitting strokes the machine should be run slow. When run using short light strokes you can run full speed. Some hammers do not have stroke adjustments but height adjustments are critical. The relaxed height should be just about the height of the unforged work. Most hammers also have a spring or cushion adjustment. These are adjusted to keep the hammer in synchronization. Tighter is usualy better than loose. On some hammers you can adjust the way the hammer hits with the cushion adjustment but most only run right when the tension is in one position. Guides should be snug but never stick. Some machines have screw adjustments and other use shims. If using shims DO NOT skimp on having a proper range of shims. Die height is critical in all types of hammers. Dies that are too short often let parts of linkage hit things that they should not. Dies that are too tall rarely hurt but they limit the range of work that can be done. Factory dies are always optimum and nothing shorter should be used. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 05/17/01 21:26:23 GMT |
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I've become aware of something about my "cast iron" doorstop. The catalogue said it was cast Iron, Yet it throws a long spark(as white or grey cast Iron does) This is normal, but, well It is soft. For example, I made the mistake of pounding a piece of rebar on it, now It has the exact zig zag pattern DEEPLY embedded in its face. Could you tell me what this is guru? Thankyou |
| AdamSmith <ColdForge1 at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 00:09:10 GMT |
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When will the said benefits from joining the webring take effect, or must you yourself enable them? Thank you. |
| AdamSmith <ColdForge1 at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 00:36:04 GMT |
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Membership: Thankyou Adam! Its takes a little while. I do all the data entry manualy and I was napping. . . Gotta sleep once in a while. Have you fixed up in a few minutes. Cast iron generaly doesn't produce much of a spark or very short fuzzy sparks. Your cast anvil might be ductile iron. That is considerably better than cast iron. On the other hand cast iron is BRITTLE but not that hard. Rebar can be very hard in comparison to both cast and ductile iron. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 01:27:09 GMT |
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Rebar: The high strength grades are hard and almost impossible to bend as supplied from the mill. They are hard enough that they may leave an impression in even a good anivl face. Even the best anvils can be abused and I've seen many with "hoof" marks or little half moons from hammer edges (round those corners!) and all sorts of other marks from hammering on hard steel parts such as bearings (maybe taking something apart). On the other hand I've occasionaly slipped and hit the anvil face with a cold chisel. . . the result is usualy a very flattened cold chisel. Pounding on hot iron and being careful not to hit the anvil with the hammer (or chisels) you can do a ton of work on an unhardened steel or cast iron anvil. On the other hand, working on Mousehole, Kolhswa and Hay-Budden anvils I've had numerous hard mis-strikes and never left a mark on an anvil face. Hard is better. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 02:04:52 GMT |
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I was able to salvage a blower out of an old oven hood vent. I want to build a brake pan coal forge and use a radiostat to control the speed of the blower. Are there any inherent problems to using an "automatic" blower over one with a hand crank. |
| chris bernard <cbernard53 at hotmail.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 02:32:10 GMT |
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Blowers: Chris, Except for needing a little electricity there is generaly nothing but advantages. Before building a fire in your forge be sure you can adjust it down to a very gentle breeze. Sometimes you need to add a sliding gate valve. Many motors don't like running too slow and can stall so some other control is needed. A lot of coal forges have both controls. Hand cranks and bellows give tremondous control but when working alone you often return to a dying fire after working a heat. Then you spend a lot of time getting the fire back up to heat. . . Its a nice relaxing way to work but is very slow and soetimes frustrating. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 03:45:16 GMT |
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Jock, have you ever heard of pop, or pot metal(not sure which) My uncle told me about it, like metal foam. He said it would melt like styrofoam if someone tried to weld it, How would this metal be made? Thankyou. |
| AdamSmith <ColdForge1 at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 10:58:53 GMT |
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ah blue. :) |
| AdamSmith <ColdForge1 at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 10:59:23 GMT |
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Chris, Another thing about electric vs. hand crank blowers for a coal forge is you use much less coal in a hand crank forge because you are not force burning the coal all the time. Also, if you have another piece in the forge you won't burn it up when you go to work on another one. I've never seen much problem with the fire going out unless you are using coke instead of coal. I don't mean to contradict the good Guru, this is just my opinion. I got a nice Cannedy Otto Western Chief blower last year that I'm planning on using whenever I can set up a coal forge, have to use gas now because of neighbors. |
| Mike Roth <mcroth at adelphia.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 12:56:46 GMT |
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Can you help me,please with information on foundations for steam Hammers. All the information I can find is very old and uses wood blocks between the concrete foundation and the anvil. I imagine that rubber is the go these days but what sort and how much? Any clues on where I can get information? The hammer in question is being set up by a steam preservation club. We know plenty about steam but little about black smithing. We probably will not use it much but sure as anything someone is going to have a go sooner or later if we set it up so it needs to be safe and workable. |
| Jo Lloyd <lloyd at wizard.teksupport.net.au> - Friday, 05/18/01 13:11:41 GMT |
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I have a question about stainless steel. My fiance is a machinist and made me a ring made of a very pure stainless steel. Because it means so much to me that he made it for me, I would like it to be my wedding ring.... I have heard that you can dip yellow gold and make it into white gold or spray something on it.... can you do the same with stainless steel (make it look like white gold?). Thank You! |
| Wonamini <mckernan at gwm.sc.edu> - Friday, 05/18/01 13:20:41 GMT |
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Blower: Mike and Chris, Its two sides of the coin and depends on how fast work. My experiance is with the bellows and its not a matter of the fire going out but dropping in temperature a great deal. I'd be willing to bet that a proper steady fire with a gentle blast uses no more coal for the amount of work done than using hand power where you have to build up the heat over and over. Just my feeling. Various junk and NEW electric blowers are easier to come by than hand crank ones. On the other hand its not TOO hard to build a little wood and sheet metal hand crank blower. Hmmmm just had thoughts of using a bicycle crank and wheel for a pulley. . . |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 13:26:51 GMT |
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SS Ring: Wonamini, Stainless can be plated with gold. Contact a Jewler or silver smith. However, the gold is very soft and will rapidly wear through on the harder SS surface. You've heard the phrase "diamonds are forever" well, stainless is the next best thing. Did you know that stainless jewelery is more expensive than silver? Its because it is much harder to work. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 13:46:55 GMT |
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Blowers. I use an electric blower in my forge at home. It was made from the factory as a forge blower with a sliding gate to control the blast. It is setup so that I step on a peddle to turn it on and when I step away from the forge it shuts off, there is also a bypass switch so that I can run it and be away from the forge. I can forge as long with a given amount of coal as I can with a hand blower. At the museum that I demonstrate at, we have all hand crank blowers. They work well but because I am LEFT handed and nearly ALL hand crank blowers are designed to be used with the left hand, my arm never gets to rest! It is hammer, turn the crank, hammer, crank, hammer, crank, hammer etc. I tell you, it is GREAT to just step on the peddle and get a blast of air! |
| Wayne Parris <benthar at pacbell.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 13:49:25 GMT |
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Steam Hammer: Jo, Even new hammers still specify wood cushions on certain hammers. If you look in a new book on hammers it will show a copy of a Niles-Bement foundation plan from 1900 or a Nasmyth foundation from ~1850. Some hammer foundations are rubber cushioned. However, the cushions are relatively small things (like auto engine mounts) and they go UNDER a huge concrete inertia block that the anvil and hammer set on. A rubber pad may go between the cast iron machine parts and the concrete. The hammer and inertia block in turn set in a concrete foundation. This is a special anti-vibration design that requires special engineering. Modern foundations are primarily concrete with a wood cushion between the anvil and foundation. The cushion does three things, it is shaped to level and align the anvil, it absorbs shock distributing the load between the uneven cast iron and concrete surfaces, and as a cushion it produces more penetrating blows into the steel by causing the force of the blow to work longer. Rubber is a peculiar substance. Like water it is incompresable and acts like a liquid. Rubber enclosed in a container will not compress. Rubber in a thin space (like a pad under a power hammer anvil) can only compress by the amount it is displaced out to the sides. Some old foundation plans showed pilings driven into the ground. These and the deep staked pyramids of timbers were for setting up huge hammers on soft ground. Today massive concrete foundations are poured except where pilings may be needed. I would recommend at least one layer of timbers over a concrete foundation. I suspect that the hammer is going to be run very little or just for demonstrations and more cushioning is not necessary.. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 15:05:17 GMT |
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Steam Hammers: At the Spring Fling Josh Greenwood had some interesting anecdotes (horror stories) regarding large steam hammers and industrial accidents. Not having any idea of the size of you unit or the experience of your crew, you may still want to research the safety of the operation. I came away with the impression that the larger (tons and/or fractions thereof) hammers and an inexperienced or inattentive operator could be a deadly combination. Or, to put it another way, decapitation can really detract from the demonstration. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Come row with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 15:46:05 GMT |
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BIG HAMMER Bruce is right, shoulder dislocations are common from low anvils and not having work flat on the anvil. The reverse, being tossed across the shop also happens. On tapered dies it is common for work to "squirt" out of the dies under certain conditions making a spear out of the bar. Running big hammers takes practice and close attention to EVERYTHING. OSHA requires all large fasteners and anything that can become a loose falling piece to be tied on with a safety cable. This is not because they commonly come apart but because operators are paying such close attention to the work area that parts can work loose without your noticing. Being hit in the head by a 5 pound bolt can be serious. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 16:03:16 GMT |
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Wayne, That's a good idea, nice compromise. Thanks. |
| Mike Roth <mcroth at adelphia.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 16:13:47 GMT |
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POT METAL: Adam, This is zinc casting alloy. In the past it got a bad reputation because it was often poorly alloyed or full of scrap and highly crystalized. There should be no air entraped in it. It is called "pot metal" because it can be easily melted in an iron pot. However, a crucible should be used because the zinc rapidly disolves the iron or steel and the pot eventualy spring a leak. Being peed on with 1,000°F metal is no fun. . the disolved iron also reduces the strength of the alloy. Modern zinc aluminium alloys are as strong as low strength bronze and as good a bearing material. It melts at 800-8501,000°F and is cast at 1,000°F. Most commonly it is injection molded in permanent cast iron or steel molds. But it can be gravity cast in permanant molds, sand or plaster molds. Welding is tricky. I know it can be done but I've had no luck with it. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 16:19:24 GMT |
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Hi, All. I live in Indiana, am extremely new to smithing and am trying to figure it all out. I've made a brake drum forge and have a hair dryer and dimmer switch for the blower, a small anvil (60-70#?) and have been mostly playing with a charcoal fire and soft machine-rolled steel. I've made a couple of letter openers for hammer/finishing practice ;-) and my first "real" project was a little carving knife for my five year old son. I'm as proud as a new papa that I've gotten this far and have bored family, friends and co-workers with all the gory details. Thank you for listening, as well! Now my first question, rust has started to appear on my poor attempts. Is that just the way it is unless I paint/gun blue/ or some other technique? Or can this be prevented during the working? I hardened/tempered the knife (I think? First real attempt...) but not the letter openers and they seem to be having the same issue. Sorry for such a basic question. I've tried searching the net and have found out that it's the rolled vs. wrought material but am at a loss past that. Second question, should I be able to weld with just charcoal? I can get the steel yellow but not quite white hot. Am I not getting enough air? or should I use coal instead? Thanks and appreciation for any and all feedback. Ron |
| Ron Rupert <ron_rupert at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 18:28:33 GMT |
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I talked to a guy who has located what he thinks is a power hammer made in Germany with a brand name...Elmeg. Ring any bells? Thanks, Larry |
| L.Sundstrom - Friday, 05/18/01 18:40:25 GMT |
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Ron, Sounds like your well on your way! The only steel that won't rust is stainless, makes no real difference how it was rolled or wrought, although wrought iron rusts slower than most modern steels because of the slag in it. You have to coat everything you make with some kind of finish. Boiled Linseed oil is my choice for indoor pieces. Some use beeswax or Johnson's paste wax. For outdoors you have to paint it, look above for some posts from the Guru on the best way to do that. Are you using lump hardwood charcoal or birquetts(sp?)? Birquetts will work, but not nearly as good as real charcoal or coal. You should probably be able to weld with either though, so you are probably not getting enough air. Happy Hammering! |
| Mike Roth <mcroth at adelphia.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 18:59:34 GMT |
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Elmeg: Larry, Never heard of it. Be sure its not a punch press. Many people confuse the two. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:10:57 GMT |
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Welding on a Charcoal Forge- Ron: First be sure your fire is DEEP. This stuff burns fast, so you need to work and think as fast before it burns hollow. One "old blacksmith's trick" that I've used is to cover the top with a piece of sheet metal, heavy guage up to 1/8th inch (something you don't need and NOT galvanized) to help hold the heat in. Charcoal consumption goes up even more, but you're after a weld, not economy. This is using ricked hardwood charcoal, not briquets. Rusty Knives: Use, maintain, oil. That's how it was done for over three thousand years. "Give your children sharp things to play with and they'll grow up careful... or maimed... or both!" from: Uncle Atli's Very Thin Book of Wisdom Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Come row with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:22:54 GMT |
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The above quote: Not meant personally, but you would have to talk to my children to get the full impact. They've led um... adventurous lives. (BIG grin) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:28:31 GMT |
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I am building a side draft for my forge. what size pipe do I use 8",10", 12" what would be the best? Then what should I put on top of the pipe, to keep out rain and birds. How about these round thing that spin in the rain? Any help you can give me will be great. |
| JIM R. Glines <jglines at kdsi.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:36:27 GMT |
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Mike: Thanks for the advice and encouragement! I'm using Kingsford BBQ charcoal. LOL! I live in a very rural area and have tons of red oak (more than I can burn in a fireplace) so I've reasearched doing the homemade charcoal thing. Seems like more of an art than I'm ready for at this point. Soooo much else to learn first. Bruce: Thank you also for the reply. I'm getting better on the working/thinking fast but it's all I can to get the iron to the anvil before it cools! haha It sounds like I need more air and either "real" charcoal or coal if I'm going to keep at this for any length of time. I laughed at the quote! It was taken as it was meant. My five year old is very careful and only gets to use it when Daddy monitors! ;-) I've developed a healthy respect for sharp objects (scouting and such) and am hopefully teaching the same. He will cut himself at some point. Don't we all? A favorite saying "If you've never been lost in the woods then you haven't spent enough time in them." or some such wording... Thanks and have a great weekend! |
| Ron Rupert <ron_rupert at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:43:20 GMT |
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Ron. try to get a somewhat bigger fan. sounds like you have just a bit to little air. on the rust. if you polish to a bright mirror finish it will keep better but only properly painted material or stainless wil keep from rusting over time (ok painted WILL rust but properly made not in 50 years yet). |
| OErjan <pokerbacken at angelfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:48:17 GMT |
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Quote: Atli, I've got the scars to prove that axiom! Side Draft: Jim, 10" Minimum, 12" Nominal, 14" best. The thing on the top is called a "wind turbine" they are said to improve the draft and they keep out the rain. Steel: Ron, As mike said the only thing that won't rust is SS (or non-ferrous metals). Welding with charcoal in brake drum forge is tricky. It takes a deep fire. It also takes good charcoal. If you are using briquets they are largely sawdust and glue. True charcoal is 100% coaled wood. Remember, charcoal was THE fuel for thousands of years. Mild steel like you get at the hardware store will harden a little but is not a good steel for knives and chisels and such. Pieces of almost any kind of old spring work better. Some places may sell "drill rod" this is most commonly W1 tool steel. Mild steel has approximately 0.2% carbon. Tool steels have closer to 1%. Springs vary from 0.6% to 0.95%. Alloying also makes a big difference in steels. Additions of nickel, chrome, molybdenum, tungsten, vanadium, make big differences in steels. Stainless has nickel and chrome in the steel. Most common varieties are not hardenable. Stainless turns the same blue-black as mild steel when heated and forged. If you want a "natural" finish this is a good way to go. You have to be careful forging stainless that steel from scale and tools does not get embedded in the stainless. If you want the SS to be "bright" you have to clean it mechanicaly or chemicaly. Most SS is "pickled" in harsh acid to remove surface iron that would rust. This is called "pasivating" Most non-paint finishes on carbon steel such a bluing, browing, blacking are "oxide" finishes. These chemicaly induced oxide finishes are not much different than the scale produced by heating and forging. Oxide finishes act as a surface to hold oil or wax. All will rust unless kept dry and oiled. Even indoors if there is condenstation this finishes will rust if not cleaned and oiled. |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:51:32 GMT |
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LOST in the WOODS: Daniel Boone was once asked if he had ever been lost, his response, "No, but I was a mite bewildered for a few days." |
| - guru <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 19:59:16 GMT |
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Guru: Thanks for the response! I'll leave the briquets for the steaks and move on to some real fuel. Unfortunately (fortunately?), the previous owner of the house/land that I'm at used a ravine as his private dump. It's mostly covered with brush, dirt, etc and can't be seen unless you're looking for it but I've viewed it as a "blight on the land" (can't help but see the old Iron Eyes commercial from my youth and it goes against the way I was raised) but truth be told I've found some good stuff in it! ;-) The springs from an old truck rank high on my list of treasures and will soon be put to good use! Thanks to all for the much needed direction adjustment and I'm sure I'll be pleading for more advice in the years (days?) to come. Ron |
| Ron Rupert <ron_rupert at yahoo.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 20:38:22 GMT |
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Hi there. I've rescently developed an interest in Blacksmithing. I have a few beginer(sp) questions. First, If I want to build a forge. I'm not interested in modern equipment, just old fashion hammer anvil and fire stuff :)Where can I find information on how to build indoor or outdoor forges? Also, I have developed an interest in forging(Not casting) aluminum. Is this a hard metal to work with? I like it because it's light, and cheap to come by. Also, what is the best metal to start with? Feel free to email me with suggestions also! Thank in advance for any advice! Michael |
| Michael <fizbon at mediaone.net> - Friday, 05/18/01 20:42:14 GMT |
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Stack cap: Alan L, will you tell Jim about the low loss cap? Knife scars, yup, my boy was taught always to cut away from you, and sure enough, one day he does a nice painful slice along his index finger, middle joint, to the bone. He cut toward himself. He's not going to forget that one. Charcoal: Ron, I use lump hardwood charcoal and I can melt and ruin good iron just fine with it. Lost in the woods: Lost, never. I just sometimes end up seeing a new place that I hadn't planned to. Bicycle Blower: Guru, we’ve bantered this around a bit elsewhere. Instead of using the bicycle wheel as a pulley, why not leave the tire on and friction drive the fan shaft directly with the tire???? Orrr... use a large pulley like the ones I’ll be looking at by my favorite scrap guy tonight. Which brings me to my question.... I have a problem.... A disease..... Usefulstuffaccumulitis. I can’t stop. My scrap guy knows I can’t help myself. He’s preying on my mental condition. He calls me with a good deal on useful stuff and I can’t turn it down! I have to have it. My financial situation is in peril. I need a support group to help me. I’m too weak to help myself. I admit it. I’m hoping there is help among like minded smiths. Know of anybody who can help me with my affliction? Pleeeeeeez heeellllpppp mmeeeeeeeee...... Here’s an example: I was there last week to pick up some stainless tubing and he takes me for a walk. We look at the aluminum pile and I take a little snippet of aluminum diamond plate. We walk in the stainless shed and I snap up about 30 square feet of stainless sheet. We walk past the big plate pile and he has a 20,000 pound counterweight for my future big treb. At this point, I’m drooling. Then he shows me a trailer load of 40 foot long boom steel and reminds me that I need it for the arm. Then we walk past rolls and rolls of half inch and inch diameter round drawing stock. High carbon. And he shows me the two halves of a drawing die holder. I’m feverish. I see two anvils. High carbon, machined flat. Nice spot for a hardy hole...... Better than 500 pounds each. You see my problem. I managed to get out of there just paying .25 per pound for the near virgin stainless tubing.... But he just called. He has those drawing die halves pulled out. And he has beer. He says I need to stop by tonight. And I will. Even though I don’t need another anvil. I’m so weak. Help meeeee....................gasp! |
| Tony <tca_b at mmmmmilwpc.com> - Friday, 05/18/01 21:18:57 GMT |
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Tony, Welcome to the brotherhood! My wife says I |