WELCOME to the anvilfire!Virtual Hammer-In! This page is open to ALL for the purpose of advancing blacksmithing. Please read the RULES before posting a message. NOTE: This IS NOT the Guru page! |
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WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived. This page is NOT a chat - it is a "message board" Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost. The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us. Please note that this forum uses an e-mail encryption system that prevents spam harvesters from collecting your e-mail address.
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| J. Dempsey <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT |
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drill press: I have aquired a champion model 101 drill press, in almost mint condition, all parts including the wrench that bolts up the drill, Any idea its value? bbb |
| - Bob McDonald - Saturday, 12/01/01 02:11:11 GMT |
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Drill Press: Bob, so much depends on who's buying and who's selling that it's very hard to say. I've seen post drills go for as little as $25 and as much as $250. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Saturday, 12/01/01 03:49:06 GMT |
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Grinnel Trip Hammer,Info Needed!!!: I aquired a 1904 Grinnel Trip Hammer and was wondering if anyone in here has heard of them or better yet any information on them ,If so PLEASE e-mail me ,Thanks Guys Dee |
| - Ghostdancer - Saturday, 12/01/01 04:18:31 GMT |
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Bob -- Centaur has a reprints you can get of the Champion catalog of 1909, which has the 101 drill press selling for $7 (seven), has a nice engraving showing the tool to be a handy devil, but on the small side as such drills go. With the right old tool nut, there's no telling what you could get for it, but you probably shouldn't let it go this side of $150 if it's really mint. They are not making any more, you know. |
| miles undercut - Saturday, 12/01/01 05:03:25 GMT |
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Deep Draw Steel? What is that? |
| Mills - Saturday, 12/01/01 13:39:34 GMT |
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Anvils :: I was wondering if any of you out there knew of any anvils for sale? 150-267+/- lbs. They do seem to be rare unless new, just trying to get some more info if possible. Thanks |
| - James H - Saturday, 12/01/01 18:24:58 GMT |
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Drawing steel: In sheet metal work, *drawing* means to form an object by stamping with dies. Cold drawing can also be done by pulling solid cold steel through a die to create a smaller diameter, as in wire making. When working with sheet cold and by hand, you can sink the piece into a sand bag, a hollow cavity, a pitch block, or a depression in wood, usually with hammers. This gives a "bossed" or bumped up appearance to the sheet. When doing so, you want a suitable low carbon iron or steel, so the chances of obtaining work-hardened cracks is reduced. Repeated drawing or sinking can create a fairly deep vessel, a wok for instance. Stamping with dies can be used to make, for example, cheap motel ashtrays, candle drip pans, or Radio Flyer wagon hubcaps. Even though you have picked an appropriate steel, you may still need to anneal occasionally. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 12/02/01 00:05:31 GMT |
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Pete F: It was your post that lead me to ask..thanks Mr Turley! Just went to the AK steel site. Under enameling steels Univit takes one coat enamels ( direct on) but 2 others listed draw even better......For extreme drawing they say they make drawing steel. called DS..and DS B The B stands for boron and helps drawing...mmmmmm, lick chops. |
| - Pete F - Sunday, 12/02/01 05:29:11 GMT |
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thank you for the explanation. |
| Mills - Sunday, 12/02/01 14:32:34 GMT |
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Cone Mandrels: I bought a small leg vise from a dealer once, the leg of the vise was stuck in a Fordson (1917-1930s) axle housing. It is a great combination. Even when they strip these old tractors for parts there is little call for the axle housings. Lots of old tractors have similar setups. It does come in handy if you ever need a cone mandrel. The thing that I find is that I prefer to use pipe or something with vertical edges for bending. Most of the cone mandrels that I know of end up as coat hooks, and don't get used that often. |
| Daryl - Sunday, 12/02/01 16:00:25 GMT |
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Deep Draw Steel: I think my friend for supplying me with pieces that must have been this type. I could fold it flat and reopen it without any problems. Long time ago I got some sheets at a scrap yard. They would crack with the first movement. Some day I will learn my lesson. |
| - Dave Wells - Monday, 12/03/01 01:15:29 GMT |
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The thing I like about having my cone mandrels-- and I have not one but three of them, ranging from what the SAE officially calls E-W (eency-weency) to what NASA specs define as AAA (humongous)-- is that when I wish to impart a conelike shape to a ring, or, can you imagine, a cone, all I have to do is walk over to the cone mandrel of choice and beat the living hell out of the piece until it assumes precisely that shape. Try making a reducer or a bell or a lampshade, out of 3/32 or 1/4 or thicker with your piece of straight pipe. Yes, you can do it on the horn-- and get a nice extra curve in it in the process. Yours in smiting, Elmo Thagart, President, Society for the Preservation of Cone Mandrels (Don't hang your coat on your mandrel-- it leaves a nasty Quasimodo-like bump in the back, just below the collar, that never goes away.) |
| - Elmo Thagart - Monday, 12/03/01 05:19:44 GMT |
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Dear Elmo; My forging cone has developed a terrible hump in the back. What can I do? |
| Pete F - Tuesday, 12/04/01 06:49:01 GMT |
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Cone Mandrels: I envy those that have a nice cone about shoulder height and with a tong groove up it. I'd use it. I have make shift cones from tail stocks, and other tools with tapers. Most have too much taper in to short of distance. One cone to replace 4 or 5 would be nice. I'd have more space for more junk. ( Poor People Have Poor Ways ) |
| - Dave Wells - Tuesday, 12/04/01 07:19:03 GMT |
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l.sundstrom: Cone heads...exactly why I would love to find a full sized cone mandrel. In the mean time i use these 1-2 inch thick circles with various diameters that are forever popping up in scrap bins around here. They are the donut holes that are scrapped when the air conditioning manufactures cut donuts for the ends of the cooling coils. If I can accumulate enough of them in small enough graduations then I could weld them together, grind off the corner and have me a fine ol' coat rack. Pete, let me see what I can do about the hump in your cone's back. Since I live on the east coast, it would sit in my shop 180 opposite how it sits in yours and over time we might be able to reverse the hump. (I'll pay the shipping) Larry larry |
| - larry sundstrom - Tuesday, 12/04/01 13:59:56 GMT |
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Pete-- Chastity's in a huffy sulk now because Yummi and Swarf won't let her play with the pneumatic grease gun and Cracked's thinking there is more to life than trying to, um, cheer up a grouchy secretary, even one as talented as Chaz, and I figure he is about ready to turn his mind to more serious challenges now that he's got the riveting machine about blocked out. So I'll turn The Cone Conundrum over to him, unless Robert Ludlum gets to it first. |
| - Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 12/04/01 15:19:21 GMT |
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More Cones: Elmo. Yah, I found out about making a ring into a cone shape when I made my first froe years ago. I forge welded a loop for the eye and beat the heck out of it until the opening was larger on the botton that the top {which is the way it's supposed to be}. Dave. I have a shoulder high mandrel without the slot. But I can live with that. I use short jawed link tongs. Regarding, "you don't use it very much". I said that to one of my mentors, Victor Vera, and he said, "When you need it, you need it". In other words, "Get back to work". And in Mexico, the cone mandrel is called a "pilon", which is really a small cone shaped sugar loaf that you can purchase at any grocery below the border. It is compacted, and you break it up when you get home. Did you ever hear of sugar tongs? .. .. space removed . . .. |
| - Frank Turley - Wednesday, 12/05/01 01:46:51 GMT |
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I didn't say I didn't want a cone mandrel but with my limited budget, other tools rank higher on the list. I have many cone shapes in my shop so things like repairing my trip hammer or getting a Beverely Shear is where my money will go first. |
| - Daryl - Wednesday, 12/05/01 04:17:47 GMT |
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Cracked turned the problem over to the boffins, Pete, and so far what they've come up with for your protuberant cone mandrel is a line of medieval armor for girls. Get it out in time for Christmas. Catch the Harry Potter/ Timeline wave. Cracked wants to call the line Knights in Shining Amour. But they're still working on it. Yours in creative smiting, Miles Undercut, acting provost, Cracked Anvil Center for Analysis |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 12/05/01 05:39:52 GMT |
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See! I told you! This is why we just cannot have this fool Cracked yapping off, taking up space with his idjit notions. Next he'll have you making fuselages for miniature radar recon planes with your confounded deformed mandrel. Or cups for hockey goalies or some other such fool idea. I say grind off the hump and let's talk about austenite and other neat stuff like swords and pikes and dirks. |
| Bubba - Wednesday, 12/05/01 05:46:35 GMT |
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Anvils-James: Hi James.....I have about 60 used anvils for sale.(928)442-3290 anyday before 8:00PM AZ.time.Cheers! |
| - Barry Denton - Wednesday, 12/05/01 13:27:14 GMT |
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Bubba, life isn't all sword's , pike's & dirk's . Mile's ,is there any chance of getting Cracked to send me a catalogue. Sound's like it may be a winner for Christmas |
| chopper - Wednesday, 12/05/01 13:37:49 GMT |
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Chopper,: Oh? What else is there? (grin) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/05/01 16:19:17 GMT |
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paw paw : he forgot Knifes, axes ... and lusty wenchs(grin) |
| MP - Wednesday, 12/05/01 16:43:12 GMT |
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MP: Ah yes! The last is every man's dream. (grin) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/05/01 17:15:55 GMT |
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MP: Was that supposed to be lusty wenchs, or rusty wrenchs? (chuckle) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/05/01 17:52:53 GMT |
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Cone Mandrels and Weightless Hammer: I have two ideas for a homemade cone mandrel. Don't know whether either is practical. If you have a cone mandrel to start with, cut yourself a sheet of 3/16 steel in the right shape and roll it hot over the mandrel to form a hollow-shell cone mandrel. Or get or make a cone-shaped negative form and cast a cone mandrel, rebar reinforced, out of dense refractory. It's more expensive than concrete but will take the heat without spalling. Now, would a 20# (mass) weightless hand-held hammer of interest to anyone? |
| - Bruce - Wednesday, 12/05/01 20:46:26 GMT |
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Weightless Hammer: Bruce, Well? |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/05/01 21:45:50 GMT |
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Beginner: Hi, I'm student from Devon in England, I'm really into History, War History, Martial Arts (Western and Asian) etc. And I've really wanted to start Blacksmithing for some time, how can I get started? Does anyone know, or know how I can contact, someone in Devon who I could learn from? I just need to know how to get my foot in the door really, I'm only 16 though so I'm fairly limited financially as far as equipment and courses are concerned. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks |
| - Paul - Wednesday, 12/05/01 21:56:18 GMT |
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A 3/16 plate cone mandrel ain't near heavy enough to stand the gaff: would just soon develop a declivity the reverse of the bump Pete's dealing with. Masonry will suffer pronto, too. Cast iron is the only way to go. Yeah, Chopper, you're right: beyond swords and pikes and dirks, there are poniards, rapiers, broadswords, stilletos, daggers, and all manner of other shivs, shanks and pigstickers vastly more interesting than ol' Cracked's loony maunderings. Like, why don't we hear more about the eutectic on this site, hmmm? |
| - Goods Inward - Thursday, 12/06/01 05:16:01 GMT |
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What is a eutectic, anyway? I don't believe there even IS a eutectic. If there is, why haven't we ever seen Britney Spears wearing one? |
| Randy Olson - Thursday, 12/06/01 05:34:23 GMT |
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paw paw : Both of course!!!! |
| MP - Thursday, 12/06/01 07:34:19 GMT |
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Eutectic: (1) An isothermal reversible reaction in which a liquid solution is converted into two or more intimately mixed solids on cooling, the number of solids formed being the same as the number of components in the system. (2) An Alloy having the composition indicated by the eutectic point on a phase diagram. (3) An alloy structure of intermixed solid constituents formed by a eutectic reaction often in the form of regular arrays of lamellae or rods. Now, wasn't that illuminating? or solidifying? I would propose that Britney Spears was BORN with a eutectic. A v-shaped spot where things solidify. |
| - Tony - Thursday, 12/06/01 12:54:41 GMT |
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Paw-Paw, At your age u should know by now ......... ( grin ) |
| chopper - Thursday, 12/06/01 13:00:36 GMT |
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That blank space.: On my above post, there was a big ol' blank. I was looking up a word in my dictionary while resting my elbow on the keyboard. Sorry. |
| - Frank Turley - Thursday, 12/06/01 13:27:54 GMT |
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Paw Paw: Chopper, Yes, but I forget! (gren) Frank, no problem, we all need a little blank time now and then. (grin |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 12/06/01 13:49:11 GMT |
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Hammer: All right already! What is this weightless 20# hammer? Didi one go up on the space shuttle? |
| - Stormcrow - Friday, 12/07/01 03:18:59 GMT |
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Pete F: Just hate to think about Chastity in a huffy sulk and that puffy pneumatic grease gun at her disposal. On the other hand Yummi and Swarf have it now...and it is hard to have a tool and not use it, as we all know. |
| - Pete F - Friday, 12/07/01 05:01:08 GMT |
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Weightless Hammer: Alright, Paw Paw. I was kinda hoping for more interest, but at least YOU seem to be interested. In brief, I've invented a way to make a hammer (say, a 20#'er) effectively weightless. It'll still have 20# MASS of course, so can do the same work as any 20# hammer, EXCEPT that your arm will have to accelerate it, as you won't have gravity to help you. This would be sort of the situation you'd be in if you did some forging in the space station. (The difference is that you WILL have gravity to keep your feet on the ground and to keep your work on the anvil.) Your arm would have to accelerate the 20# hammer down, then raise it back up (but that doesn't take much acceleration). I CAN probably rig this to have a negative acceleration (lift) at the bottom of the stroke as an aid in lifting it back up. That remains to be seen. How does it work? Magic, of course. (Anything that you don't understand is "magic." Think about it!) I'm not ready to give out details before I build a prototype. But I've done the math and have confidence in the invention. What I'm wondering about is whether anyone else would be interested in such a thing. So far, it looks like "no." And I STILL think a ferro-refractory-cement floor cone would be a useful tool and cheap to make. Maybe I'll make one of those too. |
| - Bruce - Friday, 12/07/01 17:03:30 GMT |
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Bruce: Yes, I'm still interested. (grin) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 12/07/01 23:57:03 GMT |
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Well, Yummie hid in the back shelves of the shop and was able to find the reason for the hump below the collar on the forging cone. The young terrier pup had been sneaking into the shop while I was out and humping the cone nonstop for hours. He climbs most of the way up to the top and wraps his little bow legs around the cast iron and has at it. The cone must have developed a chronic irritation as a consequence. Now that we have fixed the door so he can't get in, the hump is beginning to go down. Bruce; I've got a 90# weightless hammer and use it all the time. The real advantage is that it doesnt require the use of hands to swing it. It is , of course, a treadle hammer. The springs that suspend the hammer head are a little stronger than the force of gravity so I'm only dealing with the mass. I once saw a video clip of an old guy swinging a hammer that looked to be about 40#. The hammer head was hung from a rope anchored high above him. He swung the hammer in a big horizontal circle, whirling around for each blow. |
| Pete F - Saturday, 12/08/01 05:17:45 GMT |
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grinding wheel flanges: I need to hang 2 big ( 18 & 20") grinding wheels on a 1 1/2" arbor shaft. The wheels have center holes of 5" and 8" respectively. Anyone know where to go to buy mounting flanges for these wheels? I'll make them/fake them if I have to, but... |
| Pete F - Saturday, 12/08/01 08:15:57 GMT |
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proper coal fire : a major part of blacksmithing is making the fire i have been working with a master blacksmith for a while and he tells me that i make a exellent fire about fist size and keep it clean enough to cook on but i am not always satisifyed with one persons opionon could you please go over a step by step process of forge fire making i would love to compare your advise with what i have been told thanks |
| - Rich - Saturday, 12/08/01 16:46:05 GMT |
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Tony-- Bravo! Eschew the recondite, I say! I am going to whomp me up a couple eutectics for Christmas gifts. Pete-- encourage that terrier. Get a video into every pet shop manager and zoo director's hands. Just the thing for lonely pooches-- and hippos, rhinos, and elephants, too. For pups it's the Dirty Dog, for zoos, call it the Gee Spot. Yrs., Miles Undercut, acting provost, etc. |
| Miles Undercut - Saturday, 12/08/01 19:45:35 GMT |
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Proper Fire: Rich, That sounds right. Its sort of like the saying "more than a mouth full. . ." A big fire is a waste. A dirty fire is inefficient and hard to weld with. And you can't make a good fire with bad coal. Listen to your elders, I'm sure the fellow that told you to keep it small also told you how to build a fire. |
| - guru - Saturday, 12/08/01 23:01:34 GMT |
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CONES for Coneheads: 
Cone collection at Greenwood Ironworks Something to drool over. The cone at the left (with the eye-bolt) is solid and weighs over a ton. The tall one has a groove with the company name at the bottom. Its not a slot as many have. The smaller cones have no slots or grooves. I have a catalog photo of a cone with a flat on one side that does the same thing as a groove in a simplier manner. |
| - guru - Saturday, 12/08/01 23:05:41 GMT |
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More: That is a big old tire bender in the foreground. In the back center is a very nice bickern or stump anvil and behind that two Fairbanks power hammers. Yes the anvil in the back has a broken off horn, its one that was picked up cheap and does duty as a demonstration anvil. On the floor to the right is several more small anvils and the edge view of a Jock Dempsey rectangular swage block (one of two castings). |
| - guru - Saturday, 12/08/01 23:44:21 GMT |
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riviting tools: I am looking for tools or info on tools used with an air hammer to hot form rivet heads on 3/8 thru 5/8 dia. rivets I have a cp air hammer with a hex shank it weighs about 20 lbs |
| - norm - Sunday, 12/09/01 17:30:57 GMT |
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HISTORY OF FORGING: I am looking for basic information on the process of forging as carried out in the nineteenth century, plus any changes in it brough about by the Industrial Revolution. I am not a blacksmith, but an English Literature student at Cambridge, UK. Any information or recommendations would be fantastic. |
| Judith Evans - Monday, 12/10/01 11:30:04 GMT |
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Weightless Hammer: Paw Paw - A treadle hammer is a treadle hammer. One at least (mine) IS weightless, another (Jere Kirkpatrick's Valley Forge kit model) approximates it. You may have designed your own. Most, you have to fight the springs. I know that clip you mean, and it's impressive. The old fellow -- looks to be in his seventies -- breaks up some piece of iron using a heavy hammer, swung horizontally. That truly was a weightless hammer, but he could only swing it roughly horizonatlly. I propose a weightless hammer you can swing vertically. The actual weight of my prototype will be 16#, not 20#, because it turns out that as big a hammer as I happen to have. However, you don't want TOO big a hammer as speed is perhaps more important than mass, and a more massive massive hammer is harder harder to accelerate. Now, could we get back to the original question-- Is anyone interested in having such a thing as a 16# or 20# weightless hammer, used by hand on a standard anvil? |
| - Bruce - Monday, 12/10/01 18:16:04 GMT |
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History of Forging: Judith, No one will ever accuse you of taking on too small a subject! There's LOTS of information out there. Try a web search and see what you come up with. That might be enough for you. In general, forging has been around for a long time. As I understand it, the major differences between working wrought iron (low carbon, very malleable, not to be confused with cast iron, which has high carbon content and isn't malleable) and steel (moderate carbon) and the earlier metal work with such metals as bronze was that iron and steel can be forge-welded (hammered together at high temperature) and steel (not iron) can be hardened and tempered to make exceptional tools. (Bronze had to be work-hardened.) Very large tools (like a 500# trip hammer head) and some advanced processes, like rolling mils for working and slitting steel) already existed at the beginning of the nineteenth century. What changed during the nineteenth century was the discovery of major coal beds and iron ore deposits, and the correpsonding increase in the production of iron. As the quantity of iron and steel increased and its price dropped accordingly, its use increased, driving the industrial revolution. Cast iron, which had always been important, became increasingly important, but steel retained some of its cost because there was still a lot of manual labor needed to turn cast iron into steel or wrought iron. With the increase in iron production came efforts to produce wrought iron or steel directly from the cast iron, or pig iron. These culminated in the efforts of Kelly and Bessemer, the beginnings of modern steel production. All through this time, the availability of cheap iron, as well as economic forces, drove people to invent machines to replace human efforts. Blacksmiths led this effort and, in effect, put themselves out of business. The nail-making machines were the first, and completely eliminated hand-nailmaking, except for ornimental purposes. Other hardware, that had largely been handmade (bolts, nuts, latches) also became more and more machine made. In a sense, I'm telling you the opposite of what you want to know. What was happening with the forging process itself? Probably not much, really. Coal replaced charcoal. Rotary blowers replaced bellows. I'm not sure, but I suspect drop forging probably began in the nineteenth century -- again, the blacksmiths putting themselves out of business. The science of metallurgy probably got off the ground as well, but I think that had to await spectroscopy to really fly. (I know that both Kelly and Bessemer had problems due to the unknown composition of their metals.) Hope this helps. No doubt others can point out important points I missed. |
| - Bruce - Monday, 12/10/01 18:37:31 GMT |
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HISTORY of: Judith, There are answers here and on the guru's den. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/10/01 19:57:00 GMT |
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weightless hammer: Bruce, Since your question about a weightless hammer appears to be genuine. Yes it sounds like an interesting proposition. So I would be interested in this as well |
| Ralph - Monday, 12/10/01 20:37:56 GMT |
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History: Judith, during the farming changes of the 30's-40's and 50's the tractor slowly replaced the horse. This in turn slowly did away with the Smith's duties on the farm scene. Plow mfgr's slowly came up with throw away lays ( which were formerly hand sharpened / upset by the smith ) and implement companies started selling wagons with pneumatic tires, and that took care of the Wainwright/Wheelwright/Blacksmith maintainence of the old wood wheels. Steel wheels often were on a steel axle, although some still were on wood axles, and req'd the smith to fix. I know your ? was on forging, but it all sorta combines itself. Look Guru's site over. Wonderful place to learn. Ten |
| - Steve O'Grady - Monday, 12/10/01 20:39:26 GMT |
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Judith: Perhaps it would be best to restrict the scope and ambition of this paper in order to do the subject justice. We would very much like to see the finished product! |
| Pete F - Tuesday, 12/11/01 02:00:29 GMT |
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Weightless Hammer : What I'm thinking is to render a hammer weightless throughout its stroke by means I'm not ready to disclose, mainly because I don't want to quibble over design. I envision a hammer that could be used within a significant portion of the shop (6' circle? Maybe more?), delivering downward, horizontal, or partially upward blows, with the face in any plane the blacksmith wanted. The mass of the hammer could be anything. My prototype will be 16# because that's the hammer I have to work with. (I was originally intending to use 20#, but just don't have such a hammer.) I hasten to point out that this is speculative at this point. I have not built any such hammer. I have a mathematical analysis that confirms the feasibilty of the design. For the thing to perform as I've described above, I need yet to design two additional mechanisms, but these should be minor problems. What I want to get out of this is an idea of the degree of interest. Interest is a great motivator. (Quibbling is a great turn-of!) As described above, which of you would want one in his shop? This would be a simpler project (by far, I hope) than the Grasshopper Treadle Hammer. That's my initial motivation, as a matter of fact. I'm hoping there will be correspondingly more interest in the thing. I've been a little disappointed that I've only sold about a dozen Grasshopper plans, and know of only two in construction. I'd like to have better response than that before issuing plans for a new invention. |
| - Bruce - Tuesday, 12/11/01 19:36:25 GMT |
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Pete F: Ah, that Bruce; I owe you something of an apology for not taking you more seriously. The grasshopper design seemed to me to be a lot of extra mechanism ( and thus friction) and building time to achieve a small advantage in reduced arc of swing over a simple treadle hammer. For that much extra work one could build a simple air hammer or a guided ram Treadle hammer....at first glance. However, the conceptualization and presentation were splendid...my hat off to you. Of course, all our sore old arms yearn for a gravity free hammer....please! |
| Pete F - Wednesday, 12/12/01 07:32:34 GMT |
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hammer weld: im new to blacksmithing and am having trouble acheving a hammer weld if any one can help please e mail me thanks hopless |
| - jason lowery - Wednesday, 12/12/01 10:26:56 GMT |
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Jason: It's not hopeless, but sometimes it's frustrating as the devil. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/12/01 14:00:13 GMT |
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Jason: Can't email you if you don't enter an email address. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/12/01 14:00:53 GMT |
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Pete F.: No apology necessary. The Grasshopper is a little more complicated than other treadle hammers for two reasons: Vertical motion without sliders or rollers, and ALL adjustments (those that you'll want to make during use) from the front. The Grasshopper does not have any unusual friction. If you plan to build an air hammer do so. A treadle hammer is not a replacement for an air hammer. But neither does it need a compressor! The good news is that, although I still haven't built anything, I'm making good progress on the design. I probably won't build anything before the new year, but when I do, I expect it'll work as I envision the very first time. (The Grasshopper did. Then I revised it. Twice at least.) |
| - Bruce - Wednesday, 12/12/01 16:08:14 GMT |
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Shopsmith : I have an old model Shopsmith. I use it mostly as a drill press. Unfortunately, it has been in my carport where the humidity has caused it to rust. I have cleaned as much as possible, but the head, which holds the drill mechanism will not move up or down. I don't mean it won't slide up or down, but when you try to move the drill down to drill something with the three pronged lever, it won't move. It is frozen. I have not been able to loosen it spraying lubricating oil in side. Any suggestions? |
| - Dave Clary - Wednesday, 12/12/01 22:33:55 GMT |
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Shopsmith: Dave, Go to your nearest NAPA parts house and buy a can of B-Laster. It works better at breaking rust than anything I have ever used. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 12/12/01 23:53:24 GMT |
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Dave , I have had excellant luck with a product called Kroil. we use it at work to loosen frozen parts. It creeps into rusty parts like nothing I have ever used. It comes in an orange spray can with a block cap. Hope it helps. |
| Stiffy - Thursday, 12/13/01 03:13:14 GMT |
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Shopsmith: Dave, Do as Paw-Paw said. I think that you can get oil to the back side (inside) from the backside of the head. I believe it is open underneith (between the motor and head). If not, the "Shopsmith" name plate on the older models (my dad has one older than me) covers an access hole. Once the thing is freed up be SURE to remove the b'laster, kroil or liquid wrench and reoil with WD-40 or thin non-detergent motor oil. The rust breakers often have compounds in them that make rust worse when the carrier (kerosene) evaporates. Detergent motor oil absorbs water from the air and metal rusts UNDER the oil. . . Judicius tapping with a block of wood does not hurt. Any movement will help the pentrating oil penetrate. |
| - guru - Thursday, 12/13/01 18:09:56 GMT |
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Forge Weld: Jason, see our iForge page. The articles on welding cover problems and flux as well as fire color and joint design. |
| - guru - Thursday, 12/13/01 18:11:33 GMT |
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Anvil : Have a 306lbs anvil, wondering the value ? |
| - Rusty - Friday, 12/14/01 06:04:50 GMT |
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Rusty's Anvil: Rusty; I have a 1989 car please tell me it's value? Same sort of question---is it a chevette with 187,000 miles and rolled twice or a garaged corvette with 5 miles on it! What we need to know is: maker, usually stamped (or cast) on the side of the anvil, a wire brush can help bring it out; condition: is the face and horn unmarred with crisp edges? are chunks of the face missing and the hardy hole cracked and the horn missing? Is it somewhere in between? Has it been repaired?---lowers the price quite a bit since a buyer must guess if it was done *right*. And finally location; areas with a good supply of anvils may have prices 1/2 that of areas with a dearth of anvils. Here in central Ohio I have seen 100# anvils go from US$300 to US$40. Larger anvils go both higher and lower than "normal" depending on the conditions of the sale. Blacksmiths covet them but they are a pain to deal with for most folk and so go cheaper if there are no smiths around. Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Friday, 12/14/01 12:40:36 GMT |
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Weightlessness: Bruce, Work = work. If you eliminate gravity on the up stroke you have to supply it on the down. My treadle hammer wore me out and I went back to hand swung hammers until I built Air Horse One. The real function of a treadle hammer is that it gives you a third hand and increases control. We saw George Dixon demonstrate on one and he used it for delicate work. I had been triing to use mine for heavy stuff and the net advantage was ZERO. If you want to see how it would feel to swing a weightless hammer, tie a string to a hammer and run it through a pulley with a weight. The down stroke will be twice as hard as unaided even though the up stroke is easier. Or........am I missing something? Larry |
| - Lsundstrom - Saturday, 12/15/01 21:36:35 GMT |
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Larry: I think what you're missing is that work doesn't HAVE to be done by you. It can be done by springs, counter weights, etc. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 12/16/01 02:59:01 GMT |
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Weightlessness: Paw Paw, If a spring or counterweight lifts something then it has to be overcome on the down stroke unless it releases the hammer. If it relaeses the hammer then it has to be recocked (work). Output equals input minus the loss due to friction. Now if this weightless hammer is going to be aided by electricity or air, tht's another story. Does anyone think hammering in outer space reqires less work than hammering in a gravity enviroment? It would take human energy to stop the rebound of the hammer on the upstroke which would equal the gain from the lack of weight. And then added effort to accelerate downwards. Well, anyway, hope this discussion adds interest in Bruce's project. Larry |
| - Lsundstrom - Sunday, 12/16/01 14:01:34 GMT |
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NPR Blacksmithing Feature: I caught it last night, and it wasn't too bad. They re-broadcast tonight (in this neck) at 5:00. You can run it on your computer at: http://www.npr.org/programs/watc/features/2001/ironworks/011215.ironworks.html . Not too confused, for an NPR piece. For some reason I thought that Cracked or Miles had some Baltimore connections. I stand corrected, but I consider it Maryland's loss that such fine folk do not inhabit this land of peasant, er, pleasant living. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov (Still not back, but we're working on it.) Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ (WE'RE still up! But then, we don't run a Skraeling trust fund! ;) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Sunday, 12/16/01 18:25:00 GMT |
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OOPS!: Left out the hot-link: NPR Site |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Sunday, 12/16/01 18:26:25 GMT |
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Weightlessness: Paw-paw, you had better stay out of this argument. The physics are against you. Even in space where there is "zero gravity" objects have mass. Mass requires energy to move it. In order to clarify this distinction the metric system has no units for "weight", they are all mass units and formulas using metric units ignore gravity dealing strictly with mass. It is a more scientific approach but it is hard for us gravity bound Earth dwellers to comprehend. The weightless hammer is a tounge-in-cheek argument akin to perpetual mothin machines. We all wish we had one but the laws of physics make it impossible. In science fiction it is common to use some unexplained method to reduce mass of a space vehical to zero and thus be able to travel at faster than light speed. However, this breaks the sacrosanct Eienstien E=mc2 and the laws of our universe. |
| - guru - Sunday, 12/16/01 18:45:51 GMT |
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anvils: i am looking at a trenton anvil but i was concerned because the man told me that it had no ring. does any one know about these anvils and if they are a good brand |
| - rich - Sunday, 12/16/01 22:26:18 GMT |
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Trenton Anvil: Rich, I'm looking FOR a Trenton Anvil that I loaned to a jack leg horseshoer about 27 years ago. I shod alot of horses with it before I got one of the good Centaurs. Nothing wrong with it but the round horn. I think the ring in an anvil has alot to do with the base it is on. They seem to ring best in mid air. So if you can hold it with one hand, give it a little toss and hit it before it reaches the ground, you will know for sure if it rings. Seriously, I have an anvil of unknown origin that rang like a bell before I put it on its stand. Larry |
| - Lsundstrom - Sunday, 12/16/01 22:48:20 GMT |
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Trenton Anvil: I recently bought a 150 lb. Trenton. About a 2 inch wide piece is missing from the cap. If I remember correctly from what I read in the anvil book, they are cast steel with a hard cap forge welded on. Even with the piece missing, mine rings rather well and has the same amount of "bounce" that my other solid anvil does. If the one your looking at doesnt have any bounce (rebound from a hammer dropped from about 3 to 6 inches)or ring, it may be cracked, or otherwise bunged up. Look at it carefully would be my advise. Gosh, it almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about!! |
| Mike S - Monday, 12/17/01 03:09:48 GMT |
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Bruce-- Cracked and I are both from Dundalk, hon. (For those of you not from around there, that's a suburb of Sparrows Point in Balmer County, where once upon a time Bethlehem workers like my ol' dad went home to rest up so they could go back and make some more steel and ships the next shift.) It was named after Dundalk, Ireland, from whence one Timothy McShane, emigrated. He started a foundry somewhere near St. Helena, I think. For more on this and the generous, public-spirited outfit that used raw sewage to cool its mills, see Sparrows Point, a marvelous book by Mark Reutter. Yrs. in well-smitten smiting, Miles Undercut, acting provost, Cracked Anvil Center for Analysis. |
| - Miles Undercut - Monday, 12/17/01 05:11:53 GMT |
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Anvil Testing: See our rebound test on the 21st Century page. The worst steel faced anvils have a 40% rebound. I haven't tested a Trenton so I can't say what it SHOULD be. I have seen some brand name anvils that were dead soft. I suspect they had been in a fire. Nothing anneals better than a big wood fire and burrying the steel in the hot coals ans ashes. As Larry pointed out the ring has a lot to do with how the anvil is supported (just like any chime or bell). I've found that a tap sideways on the horn will derive the loudest ring from most anvils. Clamping anvils down tight to a dampening base will reduce the ring tremondously. Balancing one on a narrow strip of wood will enhance the ring. Where the ring test comes into play is with steel faced anvils. If there is any seperation in the weld taping that place on the face will make a readily identifiable "thwack" instead of a ring. This is more common than "cracks". . . but it could be considered the same. Most smiths can take a small hammer and play it on the surface of an anvil and tell instantly by sound and feel if they are going to like it or not and if there are any problems. But this requires experiance that many do not have when buying their first anvil. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/17/01 05:42:42 GMT |
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Metric Units of Mass & Weight: Guru: You are correct in that the primary unit used when calculating in SI (the metric system) is the gram or kilogram, which is a unit of mass. (1 gram is the mass of 1 cubic centimeter of water: 1 kilogram is 1000 grams.) The primary unit used when calculating in English units is the pound, which is a unit of weight. (2.2 pounds at 1 g has a mass of approximately 1 kilogram. 1 g is an acceleration of 9.8m/s^2, which is the force of gravity on Earth at sea level.) However, because I love obscure facts, I thought I'd mention that SI has a unit of weight: it's called the newton. 1 kilogram of mass at 1 g has a weight of approximately 9.8 newtons. Similarly, the English system has a unit of mass: it's called the slug. 1 slug of mass at 1 g weighs approximately 32.1 pounds. (The word probably originates in the study of ballistics - a "slug" is a hunk of metal thrown as a projectile.) Mass and weight, in a certain sense, are interchangeable for most calculations, because on the surface of Earth, where we do most of our living, mass has a fixed weight. It's common for somebody to say, if they use SI, that they "weigh" so many kg. You don't weigh kg, you mass kg. You weigh newtons. And wouldn't you feel like a whale measuring your weight in newtons? I weigh 220lb, I mass 100kg - that makes me look lighter. But I mass 6.85 slugs, so I weigh 980 newtons! I think I'll start saying that I mass so-and-so slugs. Sorry. I never use that physics degree and sometimes I feel like it was sort of a waste of time. Dreamer |
| - Dreamer - Monday, 12/17/01 16:12:12 GMT |
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Weightless Hammer: Larry, You're right. The fact that the hammer is weightless will NOT reduce the work you have to do. But there's hard work and there's easy work, and that depends more upon the human body than on physics. For example, I can lift a heavy weight with a lever that I'd never be able to lift without one. A lever is a simple machine. The weightless hammer will also be a machine, helping you do work that would be hard to do without it. Progress Report. (Those of you who may be following this will know I'm withholding construction information until I've got this thing designed.) Well, I got my act in gear and assembled a first prototype of the weightless hammer. I used what I thought would be the simplest design, and constructed the thing out of wood (for the most part). The good news is that the weightless part worked fairly well. I didn't build in any convenient adjustments, so I had to finagle to get things more or less into adjustment. When I did, the hammer would travel up and down with scarcely any weight felt. The bad news it that there's a long way to go before this will be a practical machine for the shop. Best estimate: Six months work to a prototype that gives satisfactory performance. The major problems, actually, were niggling little things, due to the fact that I didn't build this prototype as "tight" as I should have. There were interferences that shouldn't have been there, imperfections in components, and one component that proved inadequate and will have to be changed out completely. These problems, which I can largely correct, resulted in a hammer that could only be swung about three or four times before it jammed up. This was frustrating when I was trying to test the thing. However, three or four swings was enough to reveal a more significant problem that I hadn't anticipated. The kinetics of the mechanism worked against me and reduced the rate at which I could swing the hammer. I have already thought of three approaches for remedying this problem, but the best approach may be a change to a different design. I'd avoided that design in the first prototype because I was concerned it would be too difficult to construct. I'll have to think about it some more. Bottom line: It looks promising. I think there will be a weightless hammer prototype that I'll be willing to show by mid summer. It was NOT the cinch I was hoping for, however. |
| - Bruce Freeman - Monday, 12/17/01 17:05:56 GMT |
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Treadle Hammers / Weightless Hammers: Larry, I reread your post and see that you're coming from a perspective of working on one of those oversprung treadle hammers that are all the rage. Visit $http://www.monmouth.com/~freeman/bmf/grashopr.htm$ (less the $$) to see a treadle hammer that encorporates the weightless hammer concept. I think you and Jock missed Paw Paw's point. I believe he was pointing out that with a weightless hammer you don't have to perform work to overcome gravity. He is correct. I don't believe he intended to say that swinging the weightless hammer would take no effort. It DOES take effort. But overall it would be easier on the user than swinging a hammer of the same mass that was not weightless. Suppose you hold a 10# hammer out straight. Takes some effort, right? It would be fair to say you're doing considerable physiological work. But if you don't move it, then you're doing no physical work. Work (= energy or energy change) is force times distance. No distance, no force. Heck of a lot of effort to accomplish no work, isn't it? It's real easy to confuse physiological "work" for physical work, but only the latter will forge steel. I'm trying to eliminate unnecessary physiological work, not violate any laws of physics. The Grasshopper Treadle Hammer is quite fine for heavy work. There is some friction. Other than that, the work you do is almost entirely to accelerate the ram. That DOES take work, but it's a reasonable AMOUNT of work. A very small fraction of the work you do goes into the kick-back, that drives the ram back up for the next stroke. This is a small (adjustable) fraction of the total work because with a weightless ram, continuous acceleration is not necessary (to overcome the continuous acceleration of gravity). That's key. A small acceleration will lift the ram if the ram is weightless. I don't say the Grasshopper rivals a power hammer. As you pointed out, the work has to come from somewhere, and in a treadle hammer it comes from your leg. In a power hammer it comes from a wall socket -- much easier on your leg. Anyhow, the weightless concept is already proven. If you're near NJ, come visit and I'll show you. What I'm developing now is a hand-held hammer encorporating weightlessness. The problem turns out to be somewhat different than for the treadle hammer case, so more development work is needed. |
| - Bruce Freeman - Monday, 12/17/01 18:29:02 GMT |
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If it's really a trenton it should ring quite a bit; don't get it confused with the Fisher anvils that were made in Trenton IIRC but don't ring. The Trenton anvil was made in Columbus OH and depending on the year were WI with steel face or cast steel upper (Gotta re-read |
| Thomas Powers - Monday, 12/17/01 18:53:28 GMT |
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Tretons: Just to clarify a bit about Trenton anvils. They were originally wrought iron with a steel face forge welded on. Later, the upper half of the anvil was forged from a solid piece of steel and the base was cast steel. These two parts were arc-welded together. Neither trenton nor arm and hammer (both made in colubus ohio) had a cast steel work surface, only the bases of the later models of these anvils were cast steel. |
| - Patrick - Monday, 12/17/01 22:51:55 GMT |
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well, first I took my old Swedish Paragon, which is a helluva hunk of cast steel, lemme tell you, and I dropped it maybe four feet or so onto the driveway. It just sank maybe 3 or 4 inches straight in, and after that, wouldn't hardly ring at all. Then I took my even older Peter Wright, came out west in a Conestoga, tried the same thing. Ditto results. Now, I have a piece of transcon RR track, welded onto a piece of maybe 8 x 31 wide flange, rings like a fire bell, only it's too heavy to try and bounce it. So, my question is, am I doing something wrong? Which should I use? (I want to make scimitars out of Chevrolet bumpers, and I want to do it just right.) |
| - Lance O'Dirque - Monday, 12/17/01 23:32:22 GMT |
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Weightless rings: Lance, ya gotta hit it in the air. Bruce, I admire your zeal. I wish I had the time to digest your post but I'm late for home and my wife's not feeling well. Later, Miles: And as for you mister Miles from the same town as Cracked, that town ain't big enough for the both of you. Larry |
| - Larry Sundstrom - Tuesday, 12/18/01 01:01:14 GMT |
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Trenton Anvils: My Trenton has the words "solid wrought" in a circle on the side, just below the Trenton name (which is inside a diamond shape). But when you turn it over, the bottom is obviously been cast, as it is slightly hollowed out. It weighs 150 lbs. As I mentioned, even with a large chunk of the cap missing, it rings well & a hammer has a nice rebound. I'm going to have my dad, who's a well seasoned welder with the iron workers union, weld it up with 7018 rods. We'll pre-heat it first. Any thoughts about how risky this might be? |
| Mike S - Tuesday, 12/18/01 01:28:46 GMT |
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Trenton Anvils: I just checked that evil place "ebay", and saw a Trenton anvil for sale there. My anvil looks just like that one, only slightly bigger. If you look a the picture of the bottom, you can see the hollowed out area I mentioned a minute ago. Now, just don't mention to my wife that I was looking arouind ebay, ok? |
| Mike S - Tuesday, 12/18/01 01:48:58 GMT |
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Trenton Anvils: I was just checking that evil place "ebay" (don't tell my wife) & saw a Trenton on auction. This anvil looks just like mine, only mine's slightly bigger. If you look at the picture of the bottom, you can see the hollowed out area I mentioned before. |
| Mike S - Tuesday, 12/18/01 01:51:27 GMT |
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Oops: I should have known that a double post was on it's way....the screen didn't want to update. |
| Mike S - Tuesday, 12/18/01 01:53:47 GMT |
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more trenton anvils: ive got a 154# trenton anvil that only says "black prince" on the side and has an all forged steel upper with a cast steel foot with a hollow under it. cost me $200 in '94 i think a pretty good deal. 1 also have an arm and hammer that weighs 124# and looks exactly like it, except it says solid wrought on the side. it still has a big electric weld around the base, but it has a tool steel plate forge welded to the top. i believe it was a very good deal at $100 (but the hollow in the foot only holds about 1/4# of black powder!) |
| - mark s. krause - Tuesday, 12/18/01 02:43:21 GMT |
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Larry-- 'swhy the bof' of us left, hon. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 12/18/01 04:07:05 GMT |
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pantinaing copper: Does anyone know the process, for putting agreen pantina on copper tubbing? |
| matt carroll - Tuesday, 12/18/01 05:02:40 GMT |
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anvils cont.: i forgot to mention that neither of these anvils ring in their stands, but the little one rings quite nicely flying through the air. doesn't rebound though, just sinks in the dirt. |
| - mark s. krause - Tuesday, 12/18/01 05:19:24 GMT |
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Weightless: Bruce, “You don’t have to perform work to overcome gravity” That is not a correct statement. You ALWAYS have to perform work to overcome (move a mass against) gravity. Always. It’s true that with counterbalancing, that work can be reduced. Any counterbalance will have some friction. Any mechanism will have mass. Thus it will take force to accelerate and decelerate it. So you not only have to accelerate the hammer, but also the mechanism. I am not intending to be a naysayer, so do not make that mistake of assumption. I am just stating fact. Assuming you believe the same physics I do of course. Grin. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 12/18/01 14:05:52 GMT |
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Tony,: Work always has to be performed SOMEHOW. But the HOW is open to negotiation. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 12/18/01 14:10:48 GMT |
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Performing Work: Weightless/Paw Paw: A prior poster stated this, but I thought I'd simplify it, just in case there's still disagreement as to what "work" is. (As opposed to disagreement for disagreement's sake, a fine pastime and one which I will not disparage. :) ) To a physicist or engineer, "work" is done when you move something. If nothing moves, no work is being, or can be, done. Holding a heavy weight at arm's length so that it will not fall is not work in the technical sense. You are exerting force - but force is not work. One of the most profound things a physics professor ever told me is something they don't really address in the courses because the average person would just get confused. There is no conservation of force law. Force can "go away." Energy can't, but force can. I found this out when I solved a problem on a test in such a way that some force "went away." (I'll be honest and say I solved it this way because I didn't know how to do it the right way.) The TA who graded it flunked me, even though the answer was right. I took it to the professor, who first laughed at me for doing it the hard way, then gave me a B after telling both of us that there was no conservation of force law. So to "overcome" gravity, you need not do any work, if you are simply holding up a weight that would otherwise fall. But if you want to *move* something in a direction opposite the pull of gravity, you *have* to do work. It depends on what you mean when you say "overcome." Dreamer |
| Dreamer - Tuesday, 12/18/01 15:51:29 GMT |
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Weightless hammer,: Tony, I don't mean to quibble, but what's going on here is that some folks are using the vernacular and some are using physics-speak. (I'm using both, which really makes things confusing.) For example, If you hold a ten pound hammer out straight and >>don't move it<< you're doing no (physical) work, but it sure takes a lot of "work." You're correct that there's extra work in any mechanism due to gravity -- if only the extra friction it causes on shafts. But if we hypothesize a frictionless bearing, we can make a see-saw which can rock up and down in which the only work done is W=m*a*d; no W=m*g*d work is done because the see-saw is balanced. (W==work, m=mass, a=acceleration, d=distance, g=acceleration of gravity) Dreamer You're correct up to the last statement. "But if you want to *move* something in a direction opposite the pull of gravity, you *have* to do work." In fact, as you yourself said, you have to do work ANYtime you move something. When you move something under the influence of gravity, gravity is one of the acceleration vectors you need to consider, nothing more. |
| - Bruce Freeman - Tuesday, 12/18/01 16:33:03 GMT |
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Moving and Working: Bruce: Quite right. By putting in the qualification, I seemed to limit the definition, which of course would be incorrect. In fact, even if I move it in a horizontal plane, I would still be doing work. But whether I was also holding up the thing against gravity or it was sitting on a table and I pushed it around, I would still be doing the same amount of work (discounting friction.) That's another way to look at work - am I altering inertia? If the thing was still, have I moved it? If the thing was moving, have I changed that motion? Or, more simply, has the force I have applied actually affected the object's momentum at some point? If I try to pick up a three hundred pound anvil, I can strain at it with all my might, but unless I tip it over, it won't move. I have done no work, although I've exerted all kinds of force. The force went away. (The energy didn't, it got turned into heat and compaction of surfaces and so forth.) That see-saw was an excellent example of how you can get gravity out of the system without just disregarding it, by the way. Dreamer |
| Dreamer - Tuesday, 12/18/01 17:26:18 GMT |
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Physics: Paw Paw, I agree that how the work gets done can take many directions. And those directions can be very creative. I’m always interested in creativity. I have an open mind. No one knows it all. Dreamer, In large particle physics, and in my experience, force is either balanced by other forces, (as in holding a 10 pound hammer still in the air with your arm), or forces cause mass to accelerate/decelerate. I’d be interested in an example of anything else. I DO like to learn! Forces in equilibrium (balanced) will not cause iron to change shape. A more technically correct term for holding a hammer in air would be “effort”. Not work. I don’t think we need to talk “down” to anyone here. I’ve found everyone to be very capable of understanding technical terms. Bruce, I’ll say it again. I am interested. And I think you know I don’t agree with the lack of detailed discussion. Any design WILL be critiqued. Either before it’s built or after. There is no avoiding the critique. Discussion before the build generally results in a better design and/or less wasted effort. I have not yet met the engineer or designer who did not benefit from detailed discussion. One can avoid the discussion. But to avoid the discussion, one has to keep ones fingers off the keyboard. I comment because of my interest. Dreamer, what was going on at the soles of your shoes and the bottom of the anvil stump when you were exerting force on the anvil, but not moving it? Force free body diagrams are a good thing. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 12/18/01 17:54:10 GMT |
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Oops, I forgot: Gravity (the attraction between two bodies of mass) cannot be "taken out of a system". The force is there. It must be balanced with other forces or it will cause mass to move. Frictionless does not exist. Friction can be reduced, and it generally costs lots of money, but it never goes away if mass is moved. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 12/18/01 17:59:19 GMT |
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Tony,: Small challenge. Assume a mass in free fall. Move it from A to B. Where is the friction? (grin) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 12/18/01 18:41:26 GMT |
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Now, just a minute, guys! Ol' Cracked, he's a caution, and damn if he hasn't started to party already, out there in the forge with Chastity, Yummi and Swarf! Emerging for a moment to fetch more ice and tonic, he glimmed the above and noted that he, in fact, does know it all (due respect to Tony notwithstanding), and muttered as he rushed back into the wassail that, in the end, the Second Law, entropy, not justice, will prevail-- just as Newton observed long ago. There is no free lunch. Warmest seasonal greetings to y'all! Yrs. in well-smitten smiting, Miles Undercut, acting provost, Cracked Anvil Center for Analysis |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 12/18/01 18:45:13 GMT |
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More Details: Tony: You're right that to say the seesaw (frictionless counterweighting) "takes gravity out of the system" is oversimplifying. We can ignore it - that takes it out of our *calculations.* It's still there, we just don't have to pay any attention to it. As far as the soles of my shoes, they're compacting, as are my joints, as is the surface I'm standing on, as is the anvil, and so forth, some of which compaction turns into heat, some of which turns into potential energy. The energy is conserved. Paw Paw: Are we on earth? Air friction. But that was too easy. How about the moon? *smile* Miles: The Three Laws restated for discussion with ice and tonic: 1) You can't win. 2) You can't break even. 3) You can't even quit the game. Dreamer |
| Dreamer - Tuesday, 12/18/01 19:15:20 GMT |
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Dreamer: OK, I should have specified in space and weightless. (grin) As a sky diver, I am familiar with air friction (or resistance) and in how we can use it to our benefit. On the moon, our mass would not be weightless, it would still weigh 1/6th of it's earth weight and be subject to the moons gravitational attraction. Sheesh! Ya can't leave nuttin' out! (grin) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 12/18/01 19:53:25 GMT |
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Weightless: Tony, Here's an example of why I don't want to discuss the design. What follows is one LONG URL. (If you can't get this to work, go to rec.bicycles.tech and search on "sprocket bruce" and it will get you to this, among others.) Take a look at the responses I got and I defy you to find a single answer to my original question. Posting on google Anyway, I have LOTS of ideas how to proceed with this project, and have a pretty good idea where the liabilities and limitations are. So my purpose in these inquiries has been to assess interest. I percieve enough interest to make this project worthwhile, but not as much as I'd hoped for. We'll see. I will be ready for public comment when I see that I have a design that's worth a damn. If you saw the construction I had in my garage right now, you'd laugh, and rightly so. It would have been real sweet had it worked as well as I'd hoped, but in retrospect I left out a few considerations I shouldn't have. So it was a successful feasibility test, nothing more. Maybe it will become a MORE successful feasibility test when I correct some mechanical problems, but I see that I started in the wrong direction and have to make a design change. At least now I know to calculate in some things I ignored before building this prototype. If you want to critique a design, visit http://www.monmouth.com/~freeman/bmf/grashopr.htm . There's a weightless hammer spelled out for you there. Have at it! (I KNOW that one works.) I have no intention of talking down to anyone. The word "work" has more meanings than that of physics. I go to work every day and work hard, but I doubt I do much physical work in the process. It's hard work holding a hammer out at arms length, even if I do no physical work. The definitions of physics certainly have their place, but they shouldn't force us to restrict our speech. We just have to back up and clarify what we mean from time to time. Situation normal. |
| - Bruce Freeman - Tuesday, 12/18/01 20:20:43 GMT |
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in space there is some particals and theses would creat some friction.. now a true vacume ... in that any device use to hold/move the object would create friction (arms jounts etc.) even a magnetic joint has some friction (push and pull of the magnetic felds) .... friction, entopy, death and taxs can't get rid of any of them(grin) MP |
| MP - Tuesday, 12/18/01 21:35:56 GMT |
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fizzics: MP, yes! And just an electron movement has friction. But if Bruce can do something with just space particle friction or single electron friction, I will be the first to buy his stock! Grin. Chrysler was playing with a gas turbine/flywheel setup where the whole composite 50,000 rpm flywheel was in a vacuum ball. Active magnetic bearings, etc. Very low friction. Very cool. Way too expensive to be practical with cheap dino juice available. Bruce, clarification, fair enough. I do not WANT to critique your design. I DO want to DISCUSS it. A fine line, but an important one. In the end, it's your call to discuss or not. I may chime in with clarifications from time to time. Grin. Dreamer, on the anvil lifting, I wasn't thinking in terms of energy conservation, but more in terms of force balance. The idea of force going away is disturbing. Forces either do work or are balanced. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 12/18/01 22:41:17 GMT |
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Come on, you guys! Don't give up so easily! How about Nobel-winner Ilya Prigogine, who holds that entropy can reverse? Hmmm? Cracked thinks Ilya's a crocque, but claims he himself has nothing less than the world's first electric anvil just about nailed, by the way: step on the treadle and WHAMMO! the hammer gets sucked down by the irresistible attractive force of lebenty jillion joules and smacks the living crap out of whatever lies 'twixt it and the anvil. Then the Bendix activates the magnet up above, see, and lofts the hammer for yet another smite. Only problem is, it keeps pulling his best Ride to Live belt buckle, the one with the flaming skull wearing the Viking helmet, into the action and he's got some nasty bruises rescung it. Yrs. in well-smitten etc., Miles. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 12/18/01 23:13:25 GMT |
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fizzzzzzle... fizzz?: Cracked, Miles.... those kinds of conversations MUST be done over beer. I refuse to reduce the experience of entropy validity discussion by not being face to face and with beer in hand. Preferrably good homebrew. With enough beer, I can have a face to face discussion with myself on that topic. Come up with something easy. Like.... well like...... hmmmmmm..... how about..... uhhhhh I guess I don't know any easy topics. They all get around to being deep somehow. But, hey! Pick a topic other than entropy and pick a side. I'm game! Or Gamey. |
| - Tony - Wednesday, 12/19/01 01:28:53 GMT |
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I vote for entropy... |
| Alan-L - Wednesday, 12/19/01 01:46:22 GMT |
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Nahhh, entropy's where it's at, man. And our shapely boffins here at CACA have demonstrated (paper now underoing peer review, soon to appear in the prestigious Journal of Boring Scientific Journals) that it can be reversed, only it's more complicated, and it costs more than it's worth, see. What makes you think that epistemology and teleology are games, hmm? This is Serious Stuff we're talking here! Wipe that smirk off your fizz! |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 12/19/01 02:52:40 GMT |
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I have 7 post vices that I would like to sell or trade for a hydraulic press 40ton or better. The vices are all complete and in good shape. make me an offer.thanks |
| stan cougill - Wednesday, 12/19/01 05:14:08 GMT |
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Chevy Scimitars: Lance, all the new bumpers just kind of melt and smoke in the forge, then squish flaming plastic glop when hammered. I assume this is an older bumper that your WunderSchimitar will be made from. |
| - Stormcrow - Wednesday, 12/19/01 06:08:47 GMT |
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I've been lurking as long as I can stand it and I just want to say I think there's more than a little shuck and jive, going on around here. And I just want to say, too, that I think Chevrolet makes wonderful cars and I would be proud to have a scimitar made out of the bumper off one. What is a scimitar, anyway? |
| Priscilla Weatherly - Wednesday, 12/19/01 06:47:02 GMT |
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video: have the how to video ready to go to any body that is intrested |
| Bill Epps - Wednesday, 12/19/01 07:35:08 GMT |
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scimitar : long curved sharp pointy thing, mostly seen in old b movies by large men saying HASON CHOP!! or some such thing. now the real nice thing about makeing a big pointy out of a bumper is the crome makes the blade nice and shiney ... at least on one side ... but then the chipping can be worrysome... and then there is that hole metal fume posioning thing... never a happy thing... better to use a spring like the rest of us. MP |
| MP - Wednesday, 12/19/01 07:50:42 GMT |
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Stuff,: If you're that eager to discuss this design, feel free to contact me off-line: freemab at NOSPAMhotmail.com |
| - Bruce Freeman - Wednesday, 12/19/01 14:04:29 GMT |
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Entropy: I long ago threw in with entropy; *I'm* going to be on the *winning* side! Not one to hide my beliefs my house and shop clearly show my allegiance... Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 12/19/01 14:36:41 GMT |
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I Give!: Entropy it is. Majority rules. Shall we start with a definition? Entropy....A measure of the energy not available to do work. The energy that is wasted in a process. (sort of) All processes and actions result in an increase in entropy, the energy not available. We make energy not available when we do anything. The heat from our body exertion while smithing outside for instance. So.....to truly conserve energy, we must do NOTHING! Alan, do you still have that hammock? Remember not to swing it. But if we had true absolute zero, and we could send our waste heat from a process to it, we could do things without increasing entropy. As much. Sort of. I knew it was a good thing to live where it’s colder. The colder your climate, the more of an environmentalist you are! Northerners are good, Southerners are wasteful louts? Ok, that was one beers worth. Someone else must buy the next round. Big GRIN. |
| - Tony - Wednesday, 12/19/01 17:07:11 GMT |
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Links and NOSpam: Bruce, MP, Etal, Please note that I spent a great deal of time (months) writing software upgrading this forum. Email addresses are encrypted (here and on the guru page) so that spam harvesters cannot get to them. It works. Putting your e-mail address in the text with NOSPAM does not work. I have filtered thousands of e-mail addesses and taking "NOSPAM", "SPAM" and such out can be done automaticaly with software. There is also a blank on the input form (you have to scroll down) for putting in URLs. Long URLs posted in the body screw up the page. You can paste in the long URL (below) and then give it a short discriptive name. It will be HOT. It will work. And it doesn't screw up the page. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/19/01 19:04:07 GMT |
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Shuck and Jive: Dearest Madam. Priscilla, That is what this particular forum is for. Sometimes it is serious, other times it is nuts. It is pretty much a free-for-all. . . (as long as it is clean fun) The guru page on the other hand is for Q&A and tries to be more serious although the crazyness sometimes spills over there. . . We once had a long thread on using lawyers to test swords. . . Our chat the Slack-Tub Pub varies like crazy since is IS a chat and is not archived as are our other forums. However, we DO try to keep it civil as it is like all of our forums designed to be acceptable to every member of the family. The Pub DOES have a daily log that that can be reviewed until it is refreshed. This was designed so that folks could try to catch up on the conversation before jumping in. It is another one of our custom features. If you think a Chevy bumper scimitar is a weird idea there actualy (really) are folks that make knives and jewelry out of Harley-Davidson chains and Landcrusier bearings. We actualy have a FAQ on the 21st Century page on Roller-Chain Damascus. Ah. . Those old 1940's and 1950's spring mounted bumpers were not only chrome plated they are spring steel. Had the one on my 1950 Chevy 3/4 ton truck shatter into many pieces when trying to pull something with it. . . replacement was a piece of rusted 8" I-beam. . . No tailgaters after that. :) |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/19/01 19:29:41 GMT |
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Southerners are NOT wasteful louts, we just live in a state of heightened entropy! That's why you see all the trash in our yards, it accumulates faster than we can get rid of it. In any closed system, disorder will always increase with every action. The more heat added to the system, the faster the disorder increases. Our attitude is, why fight the inevitable? I'm going to have to build a gas forge so I can at least use the byproduct as a beer cooler. Note that this does not fight entropy, it just sidesteps the issue in favor of liquid refreshment so that I won't worry about it ;-) |
| Alan-L - Wednesday, 12/19/01 20:29:58 GMT |
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Eeeeee: Check out the link. Very verbose, but it should get you going on Entropy. If you like that kind of thing. Oh, and Miles, isn't it ALL a game? I TRY to treat it that way. grin He who creates the most Entropy wins! Stormcrow, oozing plastic. Good one! Priscilla! I never shuck and jive. Maybe vibrate and bounce from excess caffeine though. But you weren't talking about me anyway, were you? www.2ndlaw.com/ |
| - Tony - Wednesday, 12/19/01 20:38:11 GMT |
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Bumpers: My point was that since nowadays bumpers are all plastic (on the cars at least), that it would melt and burn when you tried to put it in the forge. Then again, he didn't say that they were new bumpers or that they came from cars instead of pickups. I withdraw my comment. |
| - Stormcrow - Wednesday, 12/19/01 20:38:47 GMT |
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Entropy: Regarding disorder, below is an excerpt from the link listed at the bottom. This link is less verbose and gets to the physical definition of Entropy quicker. It also talks about another definition of Entropy that is social. "The rule that things never organize themselves is also upheld in our everyday experience. Without someone to fix it, a broken glass never mends. Without maintenance, a house deteriorates. Without management, a business fails. Without new software, a computer never acquires new capabilities. Never. Charles Darwin understood this universal principle. It's common sense. That's why he cautioned biologists not to call later evolutionary stages "higher" (However, the word "higher" in this forbidden sense appears half a dozen times in the first edition of Darwin's Origin of Species) Even today, if you assert that a human is more highly evolved than a flatworm or an amoeba, there are neo-Darwinists who'll want to fight about it. They take the position, apparently, that evolution has not necessarily shown a trend toward more highly organized forms of life, just different forms. All extant species are equally evolved. —— Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, 1995 There is no progress in evolution. —— Stephen Jay Gould, 1995 We all agree that there's no progress. —— Richard Dawkins, 1995 The fallacy of progress —— John Maynard Smith and Eöörs Szathmááry, 1995" www.panspermia.com/seconlaw.htm |
| - Tony - Wednesday, 12/19/01 21:41:03 GMT |
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Weightless hammer: I'm interested, would love to swing a sledge onehanded. |
| OErjan - Wednesday, 12/19/01 22:52:32 GMT |
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Did I say scimitars? My goodness, no! I misspoke, alas! Silly me, I meant samovars. That's what I want to make, it's all coming back to me now: not scimitars, samovars, big shiny samovars. Out of old Chevy bumpers. |
| Lance O'Dirque - Wednesday, 12/19/01 23:54:36 GMT |
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Weightless Hammer Update: OErjan: Thanks for your interest. Well, last night I worked on the weightless hammer prototype for the last time this year. (No time over the holidays for it.) I fixed a couple of the irksome problems on the prototype -- some of the ones that were due to my sloppy building technique. Then I spent some time adjusting the thing. Finally got is so the hammer was fairly easy to swing. (This is a 16# hammer -- swung one-handed -- mind you, so this was no mean feat.) The problem with this prototype is that I can't swing the hammer fast enough to be worthwhile. The problem is in the design of the mechanism. (I need to try some other ideas I have, but I wanted to carry through on this one first.) I hammered away for a while on a piece of soft iron before I decided I really was going to have to heat it up if I was going to do much forging. :^) My garage shop is too messy right now for me to take the chance of firing up the gas forge. I'd probably burn the place down. So I just lit a propane torch -- the kind with the air-gas swirler, for higher burn temperatures -- and took my time heating the end to a low red heat. Hammered for a while, on it, but was unimpressed with my progress. Tried a normal (2#?) hammer and probably made as much progress with that, if not more. (It's the speed, you know. E=m*v^2, so twice the speed is four times the energy, or work. A 2# hammer need only be swung about 3x the speed of the 16# hammer to carry as much energy. Makes you wonder if you shouldn't just put a tiny hammer head on the end of a whip -- which goes supersonic when it "cracks" -- and do your forging that way. I'm sure there's a drawback to that idea somewhere, though.) Quenched the end of the bar, heated the other end and tried again with the weightless 16-pounder. Started going good before the clamp holding the apparatus to the ceiling joist let loose (temporary mounting, you see -- I'd PLANNED to rig it up permanent-like once I'd got the bugs out...) and the whole thing came down on me. Fortunately, aside from the hammer itself, the whole thing is light enough for me to put over my shoulder and carry a while. Awkward, but light. So I escaped with a couple skinned knuckles. (They're doing well. I'll live.) But I decided that I'd had enough for one evening. I can read omens too. I really do have some better ideas to explore. This prototype has already been worthwhile. Maybe before I build the next one I'll calculate the dynamic behavior of the thing. If I can simulate the dynamic behavior of this prototype to any degree of accuracy I'll be satisfied that I'll be able to predict the behavior of the next prototype. Might save some time that way. Wish me luck. Happy holidays. |
| - Bruce - Thursday, 12/20/01 00:10:53 GMT |
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antique forge?: I have an old buffalo coal forge that I am trying to sell. It needs a little work but could still be used. It has a hand pumped, belt driven blower, the cast iron pan is about 6" x 24" x 18", and is missing two original legs. if anyone is interested I can send them pictures. I live in Cleveland. |
| - Jeff - Thursday, 12/20/01 02:07:15 GMT |
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not what on god's green earth is a samovar???? |
| MP - Thursday, 12/20/01 06:07:41 GMT |
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Bill, Yes I am interested in the video. |
| Ralph - Thursday, 12/20/01 06:39:00 GMT |
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MP: It's a Russian device used for making tea. Far more intricate than a tea pot. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 12/20/01 13:03:48 GMT |
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Antique Forge: Jeff, I'd be interested in the forge, possibly. I work in Cleveland & live in Lorain, so I'm close by. You didn't post your email address, so I couldn't contact you that way. Is there any name on it? Emerald Isle Forge |
| - Mike Roth - Thursday, 12/20/01 15:40:47 GMT |
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Glass gazing balls: The kind of thing people have in the yard.I need a supplier for these.???? |
| - Dirty Dan - Thursday, 12/20/01 19:56:45 GMT |
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Dan: I don't have the vaguest idea. But you might check with a garden supply house, or you local DIY warehouse. At least you might be able to get a manufacture's name that way. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 12/20/01 21:44:03 GMT |
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champion forge blower: I picked up a champion forge blower & stand for $50.00. Bothi great shape. Anyone know how to tell the age on them? I can not find a patent date on this one anywhere. Any advise is appreciated. Vance Moore, Meridian, Mississippi |
| - vance moore - Friday, 12/21/01 00:51:24 GMT |
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CHAMPION FORGE BLOWER: : Anyone know how to tell the age on an old champion forge blower? I picked it and a stand p for $50.00, it has no patent date that I can find. Thanks. |
| vance moore - Friday, 12/21/01 00:57:10 GMT |
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glass gazing balls-- I've seen them in garden supply catalogs. Also maybe an outfit called Wind & Weather, has lots of garden decor stuff.. Champion forge date-- try the Champion catalog reprint offered by Centaur. |
| Miles Undercut - Friday, 12/21/01 01:55:19 GMT |
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Video?: Been so sporadic keeping up with ya'll I must of mised something. What video, Bill? |
| Mills - Friday, 12/21/01 02:16:23 GMT |
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Big Damn vertical roller for sale: Three rollers, about 8 inches diameter, 3 phase motor forward/backward with clutch lever to ease on power. Cast body, weighs 1/2 ton probably. I have rolled 1 x 2 the hard way on it-I'm sure it will do more. In SF-we will load on your truck. $500 |
| - Jefferson Mack - Friday, 12/21/01 03:43:42 GMT |
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phone number-415-850-4304 email-mackmtl at aol.com |
| Jefferson Mack - Friday, 12/21/01 03:47:25 GMT |
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Gazing Balls update-- this just in, as those blowdried newsreaders like to intone, gravely: just looked on google.com, and they have scads of gazing ball sources listed. Yrs. in smiting well smitten, etc. |
| Miles Undercut - Friday, 12/21/01 05:05:10 GMT |
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Mills: Bill has done a video. If I remember correctly, it's a "how-to" video of three different animal heads. Miles Undercut, Nice find! Supplier for Fireplace Screen Dorsteiner Tech. 281-931-4949. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 12/21/01 13:06:52 GMT |
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ABANA: Just out of curiosity,since ABANA seems to take great pleasure in booting out chapters,is anyone interested in starting a non politically correct blacksmith group that won't try to save you from the evil anvil shooters? |
| - Barry Denton - Friday, 12/21/01 14:03:00 GMT |
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Barry: On the guru's page, see the link for CSI. Cyber Smith's International is a group of blacksmiths from around the worl, many from the Rebel Seven, and also serves as a support group for Anvilfire. |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 12/21/01 14:57:25 GMT |
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By definition there is no such thing as a non political group. ALL groups have some form of Politics. It just so happens that ABANA has a political view at this time a lot of folks do not like. But since I am in the minority here about that I will stop now. |
| Ralph - Friday, 12/21/01 15:42:49 GMT |
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Hot Topics: Boy, that Entropy thing sure was a hot topic that had universal appeal, huh? You know, the Southerner thing WAS just a joke. |
| - Tony - Friday, 12/21/01 17:43:51 GMT |
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Tony: I knew, and I think all the rest of the un-re-constructed rebels did, too. (grin) |
| Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 12/21/01 17:50:10 GMT |
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Antique Forge: Sorry about that folks, my "e-mail"is jephrey0 at hotmail.com. --jeff |
| Jeff - Friday, 12/21/01 19:05:40 GMT |
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Entropy: Well. . . there IS one problem with it. The basic rule is that everything is cooling off, slowing down, rusting to dust. . . even suns burn out. However, the most recent observations of the Universe show it to be expanding at an accelerating rate (not slowing down). Entropy and the laws of thermodynamics dictate that the universe should cool, slow down and collapse. On the other hand, this could explain where all that lost energy goes. . . between the stars pushing them farther and farther apart at an increasing rate. But from a mortal frame of reference everything cools, slows and dies. And the older I get, the more winter reminds me of that, and the more I dislike cold weather. . . The older I get, the less energy I have, the faster the universe goes. A friend of mine moved to the Costa Rica highlands to get away from cold cold and hot hot. . . I could very easily follow. |
| - guru - Friday, 12/21/01 21:24:47 GMT |
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Non-hidden agenda blacksmithing regional group: Barry Denton and all, In the small city of Taos (rhymes with house), New Mexico, there is a loosely confederated group called Batmen, aka Blacksmiths At Taos. They meet once a month at the funky shop in the museum, Martinez Hacienda. No Roberts Rules. No officers. Just "Howdy, who wants to get at the anvil?" Admittedly, it's easier done on a regional basis than a national. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 12/21/01 21:40:45 GMT |
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Seems to me there are the hermit blacksmiths, guys who fear somebody's going to see how they figured out how to harden nail sets and go rush out and copy them, and then there are the proselytizing blacksmiths, and within that group you have your fundamentalist blacksmiths who want to |